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Thread: A return on Conceal spell

  
  1. #1
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default A return on Conceal spell

    Hey all!

    I am just wondering, how would you see the spell working? I ask this because I'd like to find a way to make a better use of that spell. In the original DK game, the Conceal spell was rather useless. Creatures that owned it always turned visible during combat. What's the purpose of a Conceal spell if the attacking creature turns visible back and counters the spell by itself? The Conceal spell was mainly used for Imps because they never attack unless they meet an enemy Imp so that they could claim in all safety, which was somewhat annoying and too easy.

    I tried making sort that when a creature attacks, it doesn't turn visible back, but the huge flaws here is that, it becomes overpowered, especially if you use it through possession. You could bring the creature safely to enemy creatures to kill them or drive him toward the enemy's Keeper heart and destroy it without suffering a scratch... This would literally break the balance of solo games. So, here, I can understand the developers to make the creature turns "visible" back, but then, we return to the previous problem: why a Conceal spell if it isn't used at all during combat?

    A solution has to be done in order to make the Conceal spell somewhat useful without being too much powerful. Do you have ideas guys?

    One thing I thought about was a kind of "remove being a primary target" property. This would give the creatures in possession of that spell some kind of extra protection if I may say. The problem is, what if there's just only invisible creatures? Who would become a primary target? I also liked the fact that melee attacking creatures with that spell, like the Thief, could get close to enemy creatures without being attacked by ranged spells until he reaches them. But how about ranged attacking creatures?

    Let's discuss about that.
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  2. #2
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    Conceal isn't really supposed to be used in Combat, it's a Stealth related ability. AI just activates it as it is another buff to them. You won't really find a use for it if you think about it in terms of direct combat. It's typically a possession only ability used for intelligence gathering. The problem is that most Players here are probably so familiar with the game that it is unnecessary.

    However, in my patch, I did do a significant change. I made more like a personalized spell for the Thief and Ghost, but more so the Thief as he's a melee Unit. I made it so they are the only ones who can attack while invisible, by giving them Melee Fist and giving everyone else Melee Sword. The only difference is the sound it makes when they hit something, so I felt it wasn't that big of a change. I had to reduce the effect time to balance it for them though, as it was a bit annoying with the default effect time, being as it wasn't intended for that sort of thing.

    Additionally, it always felt like it had a special usage for Creatures like the Warlock (and the Monk in my patch) where they could also see invisible as opposed to simply being invisible. It was as if they became an anti-scout Unit, as you could be scouting and then not recognize their presence due to their invisibility, then step into their view and they see you with Sight. This of course triggers the AI Keeper to drop a bunch of Creatures on you, which may or may not be a problem depending on how many of his Creatures can see invisible. I somewhat doubt this was fully intended for its use, but it is an interesting thought nevertheless.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; May 23rd, 2012 at 05:18.
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  3. #3
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Conceal isn't really supposed to be used in Combat, it's a Stealth related ability. AI just activates it as it is another buff to them. You won't really find a use for it if you think about it in terms of direct combat. It's typically a possession only ability used for intelligence gathering. The problem is that most Players here are probably so familiar with the game that it is unnecessary.
    Of course... but what creatures are doing stealth? Kinda none (excepted perhaps when we ask party members to steal gold or attack rooms). I'd like that this spell doesn't become a "possess-only" spell. I'd like it to have a better use.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    Have you never had a thief come into your dungeon and steal gold from your treasure room whilst being invisible. I have it's annoying. I hope I have Samurai when there's thieves on the map. I find the conceal spell brilliant on levels where the balance is in favour of the enemy. turn invisible and hope the enemy does have warlocks, ghosts, vampires, samurai or hellhounds, then search out their dungeon find out the secrets. the lightning strike attack is more powerful when you cast it on open area. if you cast it over sight of evil it's so weak plus it's good to see their creatures die!
    However I do slightly agree I found it strange they'd always turn visible every time there is an enemy to attack, if only there was a way to have a random number control whether they remain invisible or attack and turn visible again, then giving a twist of uncertainty so where you may think your creatures safe invisible if the random number hits one of the specified numbers they become visible again.

  5. #5

    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Of course... but what creatures are doing stealth? Kinda none (excepted perhaps when we ask party members to steal gold or attack rooms). I'd like that this spell doesn't become a "possess-only" spell. I'd like it to have a better use.
    You should keep the lose invisibility on attacking. Give it a short duration and short cooldown.
    It could be used defensively. Creatures with low health will cast it, flee and will no longer be attacked because they are invisible. If possible it could even be used by ranged fighters to get out of range of close combat fighters, or close combat fighters to snuggle up to ranged fighters.
    'Remove being primary target' works as well: Creatures with High DPS, low defense will cast it - enemy creatures focus Low DPS, High Defense creature - invisible creature attacks and becomes visible - enemy creatures keep focusing on High Defense creature until it's destroyed.
    If it's the only creature it has little use, it could flee, or it would simply be targeted again once it attacked.

  6. #6
    Fly Trotim's Avatar
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    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    I'm confident you'll find a suitable use for it, all I wanna add is that if Conceal becomes useful, Alarm Traps could also gain some usefulness by revealing the triggering creature if it's invisible. Would make two underused things not quite as pathetic.
    That said I wouldn't mind Thief and Ghost getting the innate ability to not be revealed when attacking as well. (I've always given Thieves Conceal at level 2 as they're just a waste of a hero unit space apart from when you convert and train them)

  7. #7
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    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    You could always consider it buffing the creatures using it, such as making it harder to hit them? Then it'd become much more useful to cast during combat. I hope that doesn't interfere with Protect Creature, but I think that increases Armour, does it not?

  8. #8

    Default Re: A return on Conceal spell

    I think that FIRST_PERSON_DIG should not force visibility, since the original dig doesn't...

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