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Thread: Modifications of my upcoming patch

  
  1. #1
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Hello all again!

    Like I once said on a post, the purpose of my patch for KeeperFX is to improve the fun of the game to everyone. I explained that my changes aren't just for me, under my vision of things, but for all the players, with your vision of things too. That's why I'm posting here what will be the changes in the configuration files so that you too, could see if you agree/disagree on stuff.

    Now, please read: I wouldn't like to see controversial in stuff you may disagree on. If there's something you don't like, you find nonsense or you're unsure about, please copy/paste the lines that bug you into different quotes and EXPLAIN WHY you may find these things unpleasant for you or ask me if you want extra information on stuff you don't understand. Saying "it's clearly overpowered" isn't sufficient. Saying that something sucks doesn't help anybody at all. All I want is to make sure the changes are good for everyone. If you can convince me that something's wrong and should be modified, then I could do it. Thanks everyone for your understanding!

    Now, here are the changes:
    Code:
    Previous changes still applied
    ==============================
    
    Imp doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry (he's never angry anyway)
    Ghost now trains faster
    Ghost has Research as primary job and Pray as Secondary job - No more
    Ghost acquires Rebound at level 4 instead of level 1
    Ghost's salary has been increased to 30 gold pieces
    Fly's fear is now maxed out (255)
    Spider now trains faster
    Spider has a different first person vision
    Hellhound can now see invisible creatures (don't we say that dogs can detect ghosts?)
    Demon spawn has a different first person vision
    Vampire has Pray as Not do job
    Troll now trains faster
    Tentacle now trains faster
    Tentacle has a different first person vision
    Tunneller has now Speed at level 7
    Tunneller has Tunnel as primary job (even though I don't think it makes a difference)
    Dwarf now trains faster
    Dwarf has Fight as primary job, Manufacture as secondary job and doesn't Research anymore
    Barbarian has Fight as primary job, Train as secondary job and doesn't Research anymore
    Giant is no more affected by Wind
    Thief has Explore ar primary job
    Archer now trains faster
    Archer has Guard post duty as secondary job
    Monk now trains faster
    Monk has Pray as primary job (sounds logical, right?) and Research as secondary job
    Priestess has Scavenge as secondary job
    Fairy doesn't Manufacture anymore
    Knight has Train as primary job and doesn't Scavenge anymore
    Avatar has Train as primary job and doesn't Scavenge anymore
    Creatures are stored in 4 categories about the amount of damage they inflict to the Boulder trap:
        1. Small/weak creatures (imp, ghost, skeleton, beetle, fly, spider, demon spawn, tentacle, hellhound, tunneller, dwarf and fairy) inflict 30 damage points
        2. Medium creatures (warlock, vampire, orc, troll, dark mistress, barbarian, thief, archer, samurai, wizard, monk and priestess) inflict 60 damage points
        3. Big/tough creatures (bile demon, horned reaper and giant) infict 80 damage points
        4. Huge/strong creatures (dragon and knight) inflict 120 damage points
        Avatar is already immune and floating spirit doesn't inflict any damage
    Boulder trap has now 240 health points
    Invisible creatures stay invisible while attacking until they cast a personal spell that heals or gives them protection or the time runs out
    Cave-in spell has this cost now:
        600 - 1000 - 1200 - 1400 - 1600 - 2000 - 2200 - 2400 - 2600
    Amount of research points for Cave-in spell goes from 25000 to 12500
    Amount of research points for Lightning strike spell goes from 15000 to 16000
    Amount of research points for Protect spell goes from 15000 to 18000
    Amount of research points for Disease spell goes from 20000 to 40000
    WOP trap has now 4 shots
    The manufacturing order is now:
        01. Wooden door
        02. Alarm trap
        03. Poison gas trap
        04. Braced door
        05. Lightning trap
        06. Lava trap
        07. Steel door
        08. WOP trap
        09. Magic door
        10. Boulder trap
    Primary room's research order is now:
        1. Treasure Room
        2. Lair
        3. Hatchery
        4. Training room
        5. Library
    
    Actual changes
    ==============
    
    Wizard has now Persuade as anger job
    Wizard can now see invisible creatures
    Barbarian's Fear reduced to 17
    Barbarian has Speed at level 8 and Grenade at level 10
    Barbarian has now Orc as natural enemy
    Barbarian gets angrier (2000 annoy points) each 10000 game turns if he can't train
    Archer has Grenade at level 7
    Dwarf has Grenade at level 10
    Dwarf has now Troll as natural enemy
    Dwarf's Hurt By Lava is now 3
    Knight now does 120 damage points to boulder
    Knight has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Avatar can now see invisible creatures
    Avatar has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Avatar has now Horny as natural enemy
    Avatar has a Training Cost of 200 instead of 100
    Avatar has double melee attack
    Tunneller now has First Person Dig at level 1
    Tunneller's Hurt By Lava is now 3
    Priestess has Sight at level 6
    Priestess has now Kill Creatures and Persuade as anger jobs
    Priestess is now renamed as Enchantress
    Giant has now 825 of health instead of 650
    Giant's Salary has been increased to 98
    Giant now eats 5 chickens instead of 3 when hungry
    Giant has Grenade at level 7
    Giant's Hurt By Lava is now 1
    Fairy's Dexterity and Defence have been doubled
    Samurai does not see invisible creatures anymore as he already has Sight spell
    Samurai's training value decreased to 3
    Samurai doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    Horny has also Research and Manufacture as "not do jobs"
    Horny has now Avatar as natural enemy
    Horny now does 80 damage points to boulder
    Horny has Missile to level 10 (until Slow bug is corrected)
    
    Horny annoyances are now:
    NoLair = 8
    NoHatchery = 8
    InTemple = -15
    Sleeping = 4
    WinBattle = -800
    Untrained = 250 10
    
    Skeleton can now see invisible creatures
    Skeleton's Recovery has been reduced to 1
    Skeleton isn't humanoid anymore
    Troll has now Dwarf as natural enemy
    Dragon has 240 for sleeping next to lava
    Demon Spawn has Armour spell at level 10
    Demon Spawn has 80 for sleeping next to lava
    Demon Spawn gets angrier (2000 annoy points) each 5000 game turns if he can't train
    Fly's Dexterity and Defence have been quintupled
    Fly's Hurt By Lava is now 4
    Dark Mistress' Speed spell has been removed
    Dark Mistress has now 600 of health instead of 700
    Dark Mistress's annoyance in hand is now -1
    Sorceror has 40 for sleeping next to gold
    Bile Demon's Hurt By Lava is now 3
    Imp isn't humanoid anymore
    Imp's Hurt By Laval is now 4
    Beetle's Armour is now 40
    Beetle's Hurt By Lava is now 4
    Spider's Hurt By Lava is now 4
    Hellhound now does 30 damage points to boulder
    Hellhound has now Kill Creatures as anger job
    Hellhound has double melee attack
    Ghost's Fear has been reduced to 0
    Ghost's Defence has been tripled
    Ghost has now Hailstorm at level 10
    Ghost now rebirth at level 10
    Tentacle's Recovery has been increased to 2
    Tentacle doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    Tentacle's Armour is now 65
    Tentacle has 160 for sleeping next to water
    Tentacle's Hurt By Lava is now 4
    Orc has now Barbarian as natural enemy
    Orc has Research as "not do jobs"
    Orc gets angrier (2000 annoy points) each 10000 game turns if he can't train
    
    All heroes' rooms attraction removed
    
    WOP creature spell's Damage increased to 125
    Flame Breath spell's Damage increased to 4
    Fly creature spell's ResetTime increased to 750
    Fly creature spell's FPResetTime increased to 500
    Flame Breath creature spell acts more like a melee attack now
    
    Poison Gas trap has now 7 shots
    Must Obey spell's time reduced to 12 instead of 18
    Disease spell's Transfer Percentage reduced to 3
    Disease spell's Lose Percentage Health reduced to 3
    SOE spell has this price now:
    100 - 125 - 150 - 175 - 200 - 225 - 250 - 275 - 300
    Heal spell has this power now:
    80 - 180 - 280 - 380 - 480 - 580 - 680 - 780 - 980
    Lightning strike spell has this power now:
    3 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 13 - 16 - 20 - 25
    Conceal spell has this power and cost now:
    Power = 100 - 125 - 150 - 175 - 200 - 225 - 250 - 275 - 300
    Cost =  100 - 150 - 200 - 250 - 300 - 350 - 400 - 450 - 500
    Disease spell has this power now:
    300 - 350 - 400 - 450 - 500 - 550 - 600 - 650 - 700
    Chicken spell has this power now:
    240 - 280 - 320 - 360 - 400 - 440 - 480 - 520 - 800
    Steel door's Manufacture Required increased to 30000
    Boulder trap's Manufacture Required increased to 30000
    Lightning trap's Manufacture Required increased to 24000
    Word of Power trap's Manufacture Required increased to 22000
    Alarm trap has now a reduced recharging time of 500 instead of 1000
    Wood, Braced and Steel doors have now 50% more health and Magic door has now 12,5% more health
    
    New sacrifices replacing existing KeeperFX recipes:
    FLY + BUG = TROLL
    TROLL + TROLL = ORC
    BUG + TROLL = TENTACLE
    FLY + TROLL = HELL_HOUND
    HELL_HOUND = SPEED ALL
    DARK_MISTRESS + DARK_MISTRESS = INVISIBILITY ALL
    DRAGON + DRAGON = HEAL ALL
    SORCEROR + SORCEROR = REBOUND ALL
    ORC + ORC = ARMOUR ALL
    FLY + DRAGON = FLY ALL
    VAMPIRE + BUG = FREEZE ALL
    VAMPIRE + SPIDER = SLOW ALL
    FLY + SORCEROR + DARK_MISTRESS = HERO FAIRY
    
    Floating Spirit can't be turned to chicken
    Ghost can't be turned to chicken
    Imp can't be turned to chicken (computer players won't do so anymore)
    Knight can't be turned to chicken
    Skeleton can't be turned to chicken
    Barbarian PartnerTraining increased to 20
    DemonSpawn PartnerTraining increased to 90
    Giant PartnerTraining increased to 30
    
    Ancient Keeper and Post Ancient Keeper campaigns have been improved
    Texture sets 1, 4, 5, 6 and 7 and editor have been improved (no more purple)
    Here are some things I'd like to explain first:
    Hurt By Lava - I altered this value for some creatures because I found logical that some smaller creatures get more hurt in the lava because they put their whole body in it than bigger ones that only put their feet or legs. Tell me if it's a good idea or not.

    Double Melee Attack - The Avatar and Hellhound are the only creatures that cause double melee attacks. The attacking animation of the Avatar clearly looks like if he's attacking twice faster than other creatures and since he's the big boss, I'd really think he should able to do so. As for the Hellhound, I think it fits that creature pretty well with his double heads. Since he's rather weak in combat with his low armour, I think it's a good counterbalance, especially for a creature that is hard to get. I always saw the Hellhound as being creatures that deal the maximum damage before they're getting killed easily. But since I'm pretty sure it's not the same opinion for everyone, feel free to discuss about that. By the way, the double melee attack is performed by putting both SWING_WEAPON_FIST and SWING_WEAPON_SWORD to the creatures, but I'd like if something else could be done because, both attacks aren't producing the same hit sound.

    Priestess to Enchantress - No? Don't you may find this better? A Priest is generally see as a healer, a person that helps and sustain his allies. The Priestess is everything except that. She's clearly a "witch" that takes joy to mess up the combat. But since a Witch is basically "evil", what other similar word would fit her best to the good side. I took the Enchantress. Feel free to discuss again.

    Conceal spell - This thing is surely the most difficult one to alter. My goal here, is to make that spell more usable than just reserved for stealth abilities because, seriously, NO creatures can stealth in this game, excepted for the Imp that can claim and wander around without being noticed. Since all creatures are mean to attack at the sight of an enemy, the Conceal spell becomes rather useless because it is automatically cancelled after the creature engages battle. When we check which creatures have that spell, we can see that it is given to the weakest spellcasters, with the exception of the Thief that is the only one that sneaks and the Avatar because it's the big boss. The goal of this spell, imho, the way I see it, is to make these creatures live slightly longer in battles by being unnoticed for a short moment. So, the thing I did is to make the Conceal spell act that way by reducing greatly the duration of the spell from 5 seconds (level 1) to 15 seconds (level 10) with a reload time very high to allow his enemies to attack back (otherwise, that would just be insane). However, the only problem I encounter is when the spell activates, but doesn't "trigger" so that, when it wears off, the creature casts it right again. Feel free again to discuss.

    For the rest, feel free to talk. The release of my patch is coming really soon, once everyone is happy with all that.
    Last edited by DragonsLover; August 4th, 2012 at 02:12.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  2. #2

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    This is probably going to seem more critical than it is meant to be as I'm only commenting of potential issues. It does seem to be better than the previous versions though.
    Generally, I'd prefer that this was used for multiplayer/ new campaigns/ etc whilst the original campaign + deeper dungeons keep their original stats.

    On to specific issues:

    Code:
    Fly's fear is now maxed out (255)
    that may be a bit to high, given that they'd be less useful than an imp in most circumstances. Maybe reduce it slightly (240? or so) to allow it to attack when in large numbers are present (particularly thinking of scenarios such as map84 (netzcaro) from deeper dungeons)

    Code:
    Creatures are stored in 4 categories about the amount of damage they inflict to the Boulder trap:
        1. Small/weak creatures (imp, ghost, skeleton, beetle, fly, spider, demon spawn, tentacle, hellhound, tunneller, dwarf and fairy) inflict 30 damage points
        2. Medium creatures (warlock, vampire, orc, troll, dark mistress, barbarian, thief, archer, samurai, wizard, monk and priestess) inflict 60 damage points
        3. Big/tough creatures (bile demon, horned reaper and giant) infict 80 damage points
        4. Huge/strong creatures (dragon and knight) inflict 120 damage points
        Avatar is already immune and floating spirit doesn't inflict any damage
    Boulder trap has now 240 health points
    Not really a fan of this as I don't feel this approach really worked that well in dk2, while some of the categories feel a bit arbitrary in this instance.
    However, as something does need to be done about boulder traps, how about grouping by lair size first and then by size within creatures using 1 lair tile

    Code:
        0. insects (imp,  beetle, fly, spider)  (10 damage )   (1 lair tile)
        1. Small  ( demon spawn, tentacle, hellhound, tunneller, dwarf )  (20 damage )   (1 lair tile)
        2. Humanoid (horned reaper, skeleton, warlock, vampire, orc, troll, dark mistress, barbarian, thief, archer, samurai, wizard, monk,   priestess, knight and fairy ) (40 damage )   (1 lair tile) 
        3. Big (bile demon, and giant)  (80 damage )   (2 lair tiles) 
        4. Huge (dragon ) (160 damage )   (4 lair tiles)
    
        Avatar is already immune and floating spirit doesn't inflict any damage
        Ghost (immune ) ( sets them apart from the other undead)   
    
       Boulder trap has now 360 health points
    Code:
    Cave-in spell has this cost now:
        600 - 1000 - 1200 - 1400 - 1600 - 2000 - 2200 - 2400 - 2600
    Amount of research points for Cave-in spell goes from 25000 to 12500
    Amount of research points for Lightning strike spell goes from 15000 to 16000
    Cave-in as it stands is already a fairly effective way of preventing imps fortifying an area as you dig towards it/ preventing creature from x for the duration even at its lowest level, so reducing the research time would would likely cause more balance issues in future.
    Lightning - how about changing the research order for spells so it is obtained just before destroy walls, as that would mitigate the more annoying uses.

    Code:
    Ghost has Research as primary job and Pray as Secondary job
    Ghost now rebirth at level 10
    Personally I'd keep pray as it's main job given that in myth ghost spend most of they time wailing in rooms rather than reading books so praying seems to fit.
    As for rebirth, I'd keep that unique for the vampire and make ghost immune to boulders, as they do have the property "PASS_LOCKED_DOORS" so should be able to go through boulders unharmed.

    Code:
    Dragon has 240 for sleeping next to lava
    Sorceror has 40 for sleeping next to gold
    These are way too large, as it would mean they gain experience faster when sleeping than in combat.

    Code:
    Orc gets angrier (2000 annoy points) each 10000 game turns if he can't train
    don't really like this

    Code:
    Flame Breath spell's Damage increased to 4
    No, it's short recharge time means it is strong enough already (it possession mode particularly)

    Code:
    Ancient Keeper and Post Ancient Keeper campaigns have been improved
    How?

    Code:
    Hurt By Lava - I altered this value for some creatures because I found logical that some smaller creatures get more hurt in the lava because they put their whole body in it than bigger ones that only put their feet or legs. Tell me if it's a good idea or not.
    Not sure about this as the smaller creatures can barely survive in lava as it is, so is likely unnecessary.

    Priestess to Enchantress - No? Don't you may find this better? A Priest is generally see as a healer, a person that helps and sustain his allies. The Priestess is everything except that. She's clearly a "witch" that takes joy to mess up the combat. But since a Witch is basically "evil", what other similar word would fit her best to the good side. I took the Enchantress. Feel free to discuss again.
    I'd keep witch as they were likely alluding to the earliest forms as holy
    Witch -
    Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wīh holy

    Conceal spell - This thing is surely the most difficult one to alter. My goal here, is to make that spell more usable than just reserved for stealth abilities because, seriously, NO creatures can stealth in this game
    Personally, I'd just leave it as it, so that it breaks on attacks.
    Ideally I'd set it so that the first attack on exit did extra damage (double/ triple?), but that would be rather difficult at present.

  3. #3
    Fly Trotim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    That's a lot of changes. I'm worried about elegance/simplicity - many of them don't really seem necessary at all at first glance so more explanation would help. At least of the ones that are high priority (which are high priority?). And when seeing changes like "Giant has now 825 of health instead of 650" I'm wondering how you arrived at this particular new value.

    The changes to damage taken in lava... hard to tell. It would be nice if you could supply some calculations about how many seconds/ticks creatures can walk in lava now compared to before

  4. #4
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    that may be a bit to high, given that they'd be less useful than an imp in most circumstances. Maybe reduce it slightly (240? or so) to allow it to attack when in large numbers are present (particularly thinking of scenarios such as map84 (netzcaro) from deeper dungeons)
    The problem here is that you MUST activate the Flee option in order to get it working. Otherwise, the Fly will act exactly as before, attack anything he sees and gets killed in the count of 3. By setting the value to 255, the Fly will flee the danger even if the Flee option is deactivated which is much much much much better, since flies aren't mean to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    Not really a fan of this as I don't feel this approach really worked that well in dk2, while some of the categories feel a bit arbitrary in this instance.
    However, as something does need to be done about boulder traps, how about grouping by lair size first and then by size within creatures using 1 lair tile
    That's almost what I did. Dragon has the highest lair size and is the toughest to boulders. Bile demons come second.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    Cave-in as it stands is already a fairly effective way of preventing imps fortifying an area as you dig towards it/ preventing creature from x for the duration even at its lowest level, so reducing the research time would would likely cause more balance issues in future.
    Lightning - how about changing the research order for spells so it is obtained just before destroy walls, as that would mitigate the more annoying uses.
    I really don't know what to say about this. I didn't find the Cave-In spell to cause balance issues. The reason why I reduced its time is because I wanted to make spells being researched from the quickest to the longest. As for Lightning, hmm, I don't wanna break the actual research order.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    Personally I'd keep pray as it's main job given that in myth ghost spend most of they time wailing in rooms rather than reading books so praying seems to fit.
    As for rebirth, I'd keep that unique for the vampire and make ghost immune to boulders, as they do have the property "PASS_LOCKED_DOORS" so should be able to go through boulders unharmed.
    For the jobs, yeah, that makes sense. For their immunity to boulder, I'm not totally sure, especially when PASS_LOCKED_DOOR doesn't even work itself. That would make them destroying the Boulders which I disagree on, unless a change in the code is done. For their rebirth, I thought it would be a good thing for them to get an extra life once they reach the max level.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    These are way too large, as it would mean they gain experience faster when sleeping than in combat.
    That's not that fast actually, but I can reduce the values of 1/4 their actual values. Anyways, the experience gained in combat is relative. It depends against which enemies they are fighting. Here, I prefer comparing the experience gained by sleeping with training instead and training is way faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    don't really like this
    You didn't read the above message in yellow, didn't you? Can you explain why you don't like this?
    I can increase the value too.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    No, it's short recharge time means it is strong enough already (it possession mode particularly)
    The possession mode has been altered, I'm sorry for not having mentioned it earlier, I forgot to include it. In possession, the Flame Breath is NO MORE a constant breathe. Clicking or holding the mouse button now only causes a single flame breathing in the same way you attack in melee. Therefore, it is no more too strong. I increased the value just of 1 because, heck, it takes a while now to destroy doors that way. I'm talking here of the bonus level where you must possess a dragon and destroy iron doors on your way. Destroying these doors now take an... ETERNITY (that's why I replaced these doors with wooden doors). And of course, it's also rather harder to attack enemies that way in possession mode, especially against Avatars like in Ancient Keeper.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    How?
    A lot of things. Too many to list. For the first level, I removed the availability of the Torture Chamber straight at the beginning to avoid using . I also made a corridor that joins the gold seam to force Archers to get straight to the Dungeon Heart since you could dig a long long long corridor and put doors to attack them in short numbers. I also got rid of the Temple since it's of the same use as the Guard Post. In level 3, I placed a Yellow Guard Post in front of the Yellow dungeon to prevent Hornies to kill the Yellow Keeper and win the easy way. In level 10, I brought some changes to make the puzzles to be done in the way the author wanted it to be. In level 11, I just corrected the case where the enemy has attracted all the dragons, leaving you without minions. In level 11 and 13, I placed lairs and training rooms around dungeon hearts to avoid an invisibility creature to bash the dungeon heart for an easy win. For level 13, I even had to swap 2 bonus levels to avoid the use a spell too early. I also made the Scavenger Room to be already claimed. For level 18, I made the "Increase level" bonus crate available to get at the East of the level. For level 19, I slightly increased the dragon's experience level to 2 since enemies are dealing way much damage and without heal, the level is impossible. And there's surely more...

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    Not sure about this as the smaller creatures can barely survive in lava as it is, so is likely unnecessary.
    Probably. I need to check that more closely.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    I'd keep witch as they were likely alluding to the earliest forms as holy
    Witch -
    Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wīh holy
    Yikes... Really hard to say. It's not everyone that will consider a "Witch" to be good. It must be more obvious than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien
    Personally, I'd just leave it as it, so that it breaks on attacks.
    Ideally I'd set it so that the first attack on exit did extra damage (double/ triple?), but that would be rather difficult at present.
    Leaving it as it is would make that spell to become rather useless again because it doesn't have a real use since creatures don't stealth by themselves. I can do what I once did: make melee attacks show them up, but not ranged attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim
    That's a lot of changes. I'm worried about elegance/simplicity - many of them don't really seem necessary at all at first glance so more explanation would help. At least of the ones that are high priority (which are high priority?). And when seeing changes like "Giant has now 825 of health instead of 650" I'm wondering how you arrived at this particular new value.

    The changes to damage taken in lava... hard to tell. It would be nice if you could supply some calculations about how many seconds/ticks creatures can walk in lava now compared to before
    Can you please tell me which ones aren't really necessary? And there's not really "priorities". For the Giant's health, I chose that value because it's the right middle between a Barbarian's health and a Knight's health.
    As for the calculations, well, you can do it yourself. If I take the Imp, for example, he has 75 health at level 1 and he loses 4 health per game turn in lava. If you divide 75 x 4, it takes 18,75 game turns (less than a second) for the Imp to die in lava instead of 37,5 game turns (less than 2 seconds). Yup, that hurts!
    Last edited by DragonsLover; August 1st, 2012 at 23:10.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  5. #5
    Fly Trotim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    You know what? I kinda posted that as a first impression, it just looks like a big list. Just having checked it again and thought about it I don't really see anything wrong. If the original DK creatures had had these stats I think the game would have been better basically across the board. And I like the fix to Flame Breath in first person

    Still I was just wondering what the reasonings behind everything were. There are some obvious fixes like the ones to creature jobs but then things like the changing of salaries and train times that aren't as transparent I guess.

    Now you just gotta determine the new fear values for the new algorithm
    Last edited by Trotim; August 3rd, 2012 at 23:40.

  6. #6
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Good to read. I want people to catch that I'm open for changes and modifications if they aren't agree. I want to make the game fun for everyone.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  7. #7
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    I'm sure you've been waiting for me, DragonsLover. And my response is, as you may or may not expect, one hell of a text wall bomb. You've been warned, for your safety is not guaranteed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hellhound can now see invisible creatures (don't we say that dogs can detect ghosts?)
    I'm not quite sure about this as it does make the Hell Hound outclass the Fly even more as a scout. It would be better if you give that ability to the Fly and remove his Sight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Spider now trains faster
    Troll now trains faster
    Tentacle now trains faster
    Dwarf now trains faster
    Archer now trains faster
    Monk now trains faster
    Seems good aside from the Monk who I question slightly due to his expanded usefulness at higher/highest levels, but what did you set their Training Values to?

    Also, you should probably do more than that to help out the Troll since he's too outclassed by Orcs even if he does train fast. The Troll's minor advantage over manufacturing really doesn't make up for the lack of combat ability. In my own patch, I dropped the Orc's Manufacture Rate to 2 and gave the Troll a 5. (Though Manufacture Values are also noticably higher in there too so that may not be best for your patch)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Tunneller has now Speed at level 7
    Personally I think Tunnellers should have Protect rather than Speed. They're not meant to be fast, they're meant to be stronger and more durable. (Compared to Imps anyways)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Dwarf has Fight as primary job, Manufacture as secondary job and doesn't Research anymore
    Barbarian has Fight as primary job, Train as secondary job and doesn't Research anymore
    I'm fine with the Barbarian having the "Fight" job but I don't know about the Dwarf. I don't think they should be venturing out and looking for combat. Also, I don't mind the Barbarian ignoring Research, but why the Dwarf? I doubt they read well but they should be at least capable of minor Research.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Giant is no more affected by Wind
    I still find this sort of change to be influenced by DK2's stupid counterparts, despite the Giant and Bile Demon being completely different Units in DK1. The Dragon is the same size as the Giant so they should also be immune to Wind if you make the Giant immune. It also really doesn't make sense when you classify Dragons as being larger and stronger than Giants when it comes to the Boulder Trap.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Priestess has Scavenge as secondary job
    Why, exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Creatures are stored in 4 categories about the amount of damage they inflict to the Boulder trap:
    1. Small/weak creatures (imp, ghost, skeleton, beetle, fly, spider, demon spawn, tentacle, hellhound, tunneller, dwarf and fairy) inflict 30 damage points
    2. Medium creatures (warlock, vampire, orc, troll, dark mistress, barbarian, thief, archer, samurai, wizard, monk and priestess) inflict 60 damage points
    3. Big/tough creatures (bile demon, horned reaper and giant) infict 80 damage points
    4. Huge/strong creatures (dragon and knight) inflict 120 damage points
    Weakening the Boulder Trap this way seems alright, though I question how you defined the sizes and such. Considering who's being placed in the Medium section, the Tentacle and maybe the Hell Hound, Demon Spawn, and Dwarf should be moved there. They don't seem to be as weak as the others really. The Warlock and Wizard, being physically weak and old, should be placed in the Weak category. The Bile Demon and Dragon should switch spots, and the Horned Reaper could also go into the Huge section.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Boulder trap has now 240 health points
    A minor increase from 210 but that's fine. The Boulder Trap could kill up to 11 Creatures before and now it can only kill a max of 8, granted they're all small/weak. It still could be better though, as you haven't, to my knowledge at least, decreased the Boulder Trap damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Invisible creatures stay invisible while attacking until they cast a personal spell that heals or gives them protection or the time runs out
    This is a highly questionable change considering that, even with reduced effect times, the spell becomes quite overpowered with the right Creatures. It'll make Conceal a pretty broken Keeper Spell as it did in previous versions of your patch that I tried. However, I'll keep my main arguement down below in response to your second mention of the spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Wizard can now see invisible creatures
    Why exactly? Because they're magical? To be honest, the Wizard seems powerful enough as he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Barbarian has now Orc as natural enemy
    Dwarf has now Troll as natural enemy
    Avatar has now Horny as natural enemy
    Weren't you the one who told me not to have too many Lair Enemies? The last one I don't mind since it makes sense but is also hardly an issue, though the former two I don't really understand at all. It just seems like you're trying to follow DK2 counterpart logic again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Archer has Grenade at level 7
    Dwarf has Grenade at level 10
    Giant has Grenade at level 7
    Er, why? The Dwarf and Archer I can kind of make sense out of but the Giant?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Avatar has a Training Cost of 200 instead of 100
    Is that even necessary? If anything, it only screws with custom made maps. Seems like a generally bad change.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Priestess has now Kill Creatures and Persuade as anger jobs
    Elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Giant has now 825 of health instead of 650
    A better change to buff the Giant would be to increase the Giant's Strength since that's better fit within his role.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Giant's Hurt By Lava is now 1
    Stop following DK2 logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fairy's Dexterity and Defence have been doubled
    The Defense seems like a good to decent change, but the Dexterity boost is practically useless. Why bother with that? Additionally, why is she getting Double Dexterity in the first place? I don't think she's an Archer type of Unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Samurai doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    Explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Skeleton isn't humanoid anymore
    What's the point of this, exactly? I'm assuming you're trying to eliminate the Frozen/Meteor death animations due to them containing blood and the Skeleton having naught.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Demon Spawn gets angrier (2000 annoy points) each 5000 game turns if he can't train
    Should you really do this? Demon Spawns have enough trouble finding usefulness as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fly's Dexterity and Defence have been quintupled
    Good try but no, that alone won't make him more useful. He still can't dodge Spells and he'll only be lucky for so long with Melee. Plus hitting targets is meaningless when you have 10 Strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fly's Hurt By Lava is now 4
    Ok that's just silly. The only time that will seriously take effect, aside from the obvious Possession, is when the Fly gets frozen over lava and drops in. With the Fly's low Health, he will die extremely fast, thus giving him a very random weakness.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Dark Mistress' Speed spell has been removed
    Dark Mistress has now 600 of health instead of 700
    Dark Mistress's annoyance in hand is now -1
    Well that seems alright, she definitely won't be as overpowered in how she escapes enemies nor in how she destroys them. I personally used a different method for balancing her.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bile Demon's Hurt By Lava is now 3
    That doesn't even follow the logic behind the other "Hurt By Lava" changes. :/

    ...Or are you trying to make a pun by saying that he's burning weight...? Because it wasn't very funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hellhound has double melee attack
    Questionable, I'd say to remove it. Keep in mind that he has Speed Monster, so you're bumping him up to 4 Melee Attacks + 2 Flame Breaths. He was already quite strong due to Speed + Melee/Flame Breath combo, no need to make him even stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ghost has now Hailstorm at level 10
    Ghost now rebirth at level 10
    Questionable... While the Ghost does need some more usefulness, I have to wonder if Hailstorm and Resurrection is the way to go about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Orc gets angrier (2000 annoy points) each 10000 game turns if he can't train
    Also questionable. Orcs are supposed to be simple and rounded but reliable Units, and this contradicts with that. They're also supposed to be loyal judging by how they like to Guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    All heroes' rooms attraction removed
    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    WOP creature spell's Damage increased to 125
    Wasn't it 150 by default? That should be a decrease then.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fly creature spell's ResetTime increased to 750
    Fly creature spell's FPResetTime increased to 500
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Must Obey spell's time reduced to 12 instead of 18
    I'm unfamiliar with Must Obey, what kind of effect does this have?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    New sacrifices replacing existing KeeperFX recipes:
    Purposely ignoring this as I'm not sure what to comment on sacrifices in general, for now. Just stating it so you don't assume I approved it or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Floating Spirit can't be turned to chicken
    Pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ghost has Research as primary job and Pray as Secondary job - No more
    Why did you remove this exactly? Because it makes "logical" sense? They're going to pray regardless, it's just a question of whether they do something useful on their own or not before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hurt By Lava - I altered this value for some creatures because I found logical that some smaller creatures get more hurt in the lava because they put their whole body in it than bigger ones that only put their feet or legs. Tell me if it's a good idea or not.
    Logic doesn't always work well with Gameplay. Said Creatures already have low Health and die faster in lava anyways. This is basically overkill. The only one I would actually and ironically accept would be the Bile Demon, and that's due to them having a lot of Health.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Double Melee Attack - The Avatar and Hellhound are the only creatures that cause double melee attacks. The attacking animation of the Avatar clearly looks like if he's attacking twice faster than other creatures and since he's the big boss, I'd really think he should able to do so. As for the Hellhound, I think it fits that creature pretty well with his double heads. Since he's rather weak in combat with his low armour, I think it's a good counterbalance, especially for a creature that is hard to get. I always saw the Hellhound as being creatures that deal the maximum damage before they're getting killed easily. But since I'm pretty sure it's not the same opinion for everyone, feel free to discuss about that.
    Same thing as above regarding logic and gameplay, though I do have something else to say here regarding the Hell Hound. Keep in mind that the Hell Hound isn't supposed to take much damage, he's an offensive Unit. He shouldn't be placed in a position where he'll die easily. While he does appear later on, he also trains very fast due to having Speed Monster at Level 3. Additionally, while he has an average-ish Strength of 55, being able to hit hit 2 times makes up for it and helps him deal high damage, especially with his noticeably higher Dexterity. That's not even counting Flame Breath, which you've also boosted in strength noticably. He'll do 130x2 Damage with it when he recieves it at Level 5 compared to 100x2. Honestly, I think he's good as he is. If you're going to add a second Melee, then decrease his Strength so he doesn't become too overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    By the way, the double melee attack is performed by putting both SWING_WEAPON_FIST and SWING_WEAPON_SWORD to the creatures, but I'd like if something else could be done because, both attacks aren't producing the same hit sound.
    That's exactly why there's two Melee Types to begin with, to offer different sounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Priestess to Enchantress - No? Don't you may find this better? A Priest is generally see as a healer, a person that helps and sustain his allies. The Priestess is everything except that. She's clearly a "witch" that takes joy to mess up the combat. But since a Witch is basically "evil", what other similar word would fit her best to the good side. I took the Enchantress. Feel free to discuss again.
    This is a very picky detail to change being as it really doesn't effect anything. Personally, I'd say leave it as Priestess. While you state that a Priest is generally a healer, the keyword is generally. This is DK, where things are twisted around a bit. Additionally, there's also the reason of nostalgia. People may prefer the Priestess/Witch terms simply because they're more familiar with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Conceal spell - This thing is surely the most difficult one to alter. My goal here, is to make that spell more usable than just reserved for stealth abilities because, seriously, NO creatures can stealth in this game, excepted for the Imp that can claim and wander around without being noticed. Since all creatures are mean to attack at the sight of an enemy, the Conceal spell becomes rather useless because it is automatically cancelled after the creature engages battle. When we check which creatures have that spell, we can see that it is given to the weakest spellcasters, with the exception of the Thief that is the only one that sneaks and the Avatar because it's the big boss. The goal of this spell, imho, the way I see it, is to make these creatures live slightly longer in battles by being unnoticed for a short moment. So, the thing I did is to make the Conceal spell act that way by reducing greatly the duration of the spell from 5 seconds (level 1) to 15 seconds (level 10) with a reload time very high to allow his enemies to attack back (otherwise, that would just be insane). However, the only problem I encounter is when the spell activates, but doesn't "trigger" so that, when it wears off, the creature casts it right again. Feel free again to discuss.
    As I mentioned in the "A return on Conceal Spell" thread, Conceal is indeed a Stealth ability. What you're trying to do is transform it into another combat ability because you don't want it to be just a Possession ability, which is not necessarily a bad goal. However, good intentions won't make the game more balanced. Without an effective way to change Conceal into a useful and balanced combat ability, you'll make it worse than before. There's just too many problems with what you're trying to do.

    The first major issue is simply a question of balance with the Keeper variation of the spell. Obviously a casting on a Horned Reaper or a different offensive Creature like the Hell Hound would prove itself much more effective than using it on other Creatures. With such Creatures, it becomes rather abusable. Another abusable tactic is simply refreshing the casting on a Creature over and over again. The costs may add up after a while, but with a strong offensive Creature, 15 seconds for 500 Gold is quite a bargain. Additionally, utilizing Gold Costs as a balancing trait will result in similar effects as to the Lightning Spell. Players trying to play "fairly" may likely find such abusive opportunities discouraging as it will be difficult to judge where they're crossing the line between fair use and abuse.

    You can't really draw a line between balance and fairness with this sort of thing. You have to take in consideration how the offensive Creatures benifit compared to other Creatures. You can make it very costly to fit it better for the more useful/offensive Creature castings like the ones previously mentioned, but then it becomes more worthless with just about every other Creature. Doing the opposite just leaves an easy opportunity for very abusive tactics. There's not much of a "middle line" because the best you can do is make it so it's noticably overpowered on offensive Creatures and noticably underpowered on others.

    The second main problem relates to technical difficulties. The AI simply does not handle it very well. I won't go too into the details here because I know you also know of this issue, having brought it up before. However, I will mention something I noticed that you may not be familiar with, which is that if an invisible Creature attacks someone during battle, said attacked Creature may actually start fleeing from battle. I've suffered with these issues in my own patch previously with just the Thief having a permanent Invisibility. With a large number of Invisible Creatures, this may become a bit more problematic. Heroes can prove themselves to be especially annoying, as their AI will have them seek out Imps with highest priority.

    Lastly, the problem with the AI also contradicts with your goals. You're trying to expand it beyond just Player usage, yet enemy Keeper AI also does not know how to handle the spell properly. This generally defeats the purpose as in the end, it will be essentially a Player only Spell.

    Unless you can find a way to effectively solve these issues, I would keep Invisibility as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    Not really a fan of this as I don't feel this approach really worked that well in dk2, while some of the categories feel a bit arbitrary in this instance.
    However, as something does need to be done about boulder traps, how about grouping by lair size first and then by size within creatures using 1 lair tile

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    That's almost what I did. Dragon has the highest lair size and is the toughest to boulders. Bile demons come second.
    The problem with that is that you're using the wrong kind of information systematically. Lair sizes were obviously not meant to define this sort of thing, and using such information will result in things such as the Dragon doing more damage than the Bile Demon. This doesn't make sense from both a gameplay and realistic perspective. Boulder Traps deal fixed damage and the Bile Demon has the most Health, so he's obviously the best candidate for taking the hit from a Boulder. As such, he should better establish his anti-boulder usage by dealing the most damage to it. Additionally, he's extremely large and can grow to be nearly as big as the Boulder Trap itself, so it only makes "logical" sense for him to be the most effective against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    Cave-in as it stands is already a fairly effective way of preventing imps fortifying an area as you dig towards it/ preventing creature from x for the duration even at its lowest level, so reducing the research time would would likely cause more balance issues in future.
    Err, what? You mean using Sight of Evil over areas where enemy Imps are reinforcing walls to prevent them from reinforcing it while you tunnel your way over there to breach their dungeon? If so, that's extremely situational usage, actually. I've never used the method myself and don't think I'll start anytime soon. Usually by the time you're ready to attack, the enemy has either A) Fortified all their walls or B) Opened themselves up due to water or something. Only in the case of the former would that tactic be used and even then, it's hardly needed. If you know where an enemy is expanding out, you can just as easily ambush them before they reinforce the walls in most scenerios.

    As for the latter usage, I would say the Spell is broken due to that reason. It makes enemies retreat back to their Lair and Heroes back to their spawning point while simultaneously making them vulnerable as they refuse to attack even if they're being attacked. That's something that should be removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    Lightning - how about changing the research order for spells so it is obtained just before destroy walls, as that would mitigate the more annoying uses.
    That's pretty poor balancing. All it really does is delay when it's obtained, but not by too much as the Player should have some higher leveled researchers by that point in the game. The problem is with the Spell's effects itself, not when it's obtained.

    Quote Originally Posted by edorien View Post
    These are way too large, as it would mean they gain experience faster when sleeping than in combat.
    One thing DragonsLover forgot to mention is that the Sleep Experience is bugged. Creatures don't get as much experience as they should be, and as a result, the original values for Sleep Experience caused very small differences. DragonsLover found that this could be fixed by increasing the values.

    In other words, it's not nearly as high as it looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim View Post
    The changes to damage taken in lava... hard to tell. It would be nice if you could supply some calculations about how many seconds/ticks creatures can walk in lava now compared to before
    Default damage is 2 Per Game Turn, which is 40 Damage Per Second. So a value of 3 or 4 is 150/200% that speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    For the rest, feel free to talk. The release of my patch is coming really soon, once everyone is happy with all that.
    I'm not happy. I used up at least three hours writing this. Give me back my hours, damn you.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    >>Vampire has Pray as Not do job

    Does that mean they can't pray in the Temple?

    This would mean that if they had disease spell casted on them, they wouldn't be able to get rid of it in the Temple, I think.

    The Temple makes the Vampires angry after a certain time limit when they pray in it anyway, but I use it if I want to remove the disease from them.

    But dropping gold coins on the Vampire makes them happy again if one or two did get angry.


    Just for you to consider in your patch.

    But good luck in that.

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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    I like the fact Conceal now has usage beyond casting it on Imps. Makes detection actually necessary. Is a big change but I'm sure there are ways to deal with it. The Keeper spell might then be overpowered but that can be fixed once we've been able to test and fight it a bit.

    I also agree with buffing Troll manufacture to 4 and nerfing Orc manufacture to 2

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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim View Post
    I like the fact Conceal now has usage beyond casting it on Imps. Makes detection actually necessary. Is a big change but I'm sure there are ways to deal with it. The Keeper spell might then be overpowered but that can be fixed once we've been able to test and fight it a bit.
    Much easier said than actually done, and it's another question of whether it can be done to begin with. I'm mainly looking at being able to accomplish the goal without being forced to rebuild a significant to large portion of the game around it. Changing how certain Creatures operate (in terms of general Unit Role/usage) in order to get it to function properly and balanced is an example of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim View Post
    I also agree with buffing Troll manufacture to 4 and nerfing Orc manufacture to 2
    Troll's Manufacturing value is 4 by default. I had mentioned that it was increased to 5 in my patch.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

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