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Thread: Modifications of my upcoming patch

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    I like the things how they are in 0.40 version, but I'm not saying that I don't want to try the new version of the patch. We just need, IMHO, a system to switch between original (maybe with values nerfed to re-create the overflow bugs) and the various version of your patch, increasing the various strategy that involve one or another version of settings.

    Talking of your new patch, here some humble suggestion that you can put: I suggest that the floating spirit has setting like another creature, so we can use another creature, and that the Avatar has Rebound, to make him overpowered, since I like the idea that the Avatar has to be overpowered...

  2. #12
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I'm sure you've been waiting for me, DragonsLover. And my response is, as you may or may not expect, one hell of a text wall bomb. You've been warned, for your safety is not guaranteed.
    Yeah, I was more or less waiting for you and I know that my safety isn't guaranteed. I know there are things that still may have to be changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I'm not quite sure about this as it does make the Hell Hound outclass the Fly even more as a scout. It would be better if you give that ability to the Fly and remove his Sight.
    Nope, and here's why: since the flees the danger, its ability for detecting invisible creatures becomes... useless, with the only exception when he has no choice to fight if he cannot flee. I can make the act like before, but he's gonna be killed in no time since he's so weak. I don't wanna see the that way. His goal is to explore and serve as temple ingredient. That way, I find a good idea for the to get that ability. Something I can do, if you want, is to make the stop detecting invisible enemies and give him the ability at high level. What would you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Seems good aside from the Monk who I question slightly due to his expanded usefulness at higher/highest levels, but what did you set their Training Values to?

    Also, you should probably do more than that to help out the Troll since he's too outclassed by Orcs even if he does train fast. The Troll's minor advantage over manufacturing really doesn't make up for the lack of combat ability. In my own patch, I dropped the Orc's Manufacture Rate to 2 and gave the Troll a 5. (Though Manufacture Values are also noticably higher in there too so that may not be best for your patch)
    The Training value for all of them were originally 1. I simply increased all of them by 1 to turn them to 2.

    The isn't mean to fight, it is not: he's a manufacturer. It's a creature that is useful if you need to build traps and doors fast on the level by keeping a few of them. They can also serve as a last line of defence. I can increase the Manufacture value of the to 5, but that would be all. Also, I made a sacrifice that you may find useful if you need more fighters than builders.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Personally I think Tunnellers should have Protect rather than Speed. They're not meant to be fast, they're meant to be stronger and more durable. (Compared to Imps anyways)
    I find speed to be interesting since you could make slow tunnellers and fast tunnellers in levels. Imps also have that ability anyway. And I'm not sure to make them stronger and durable: they're the hero version of imps after all and therefore, should be kept weak. Their goal is principally to tunnel to the dungeon. Also, they are already way stronger than imps.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I'm fine with the Barbarian having the "Fight" job but I don't know about the Dwarf. I don't think they should be venturing out and looking for combat. Also, I don't mind the Barbarian ignoring Research, but why the Dwarf? I doubt they read well but they should be at least capable of minor Research.
    Right. I can alter this. To my eyes, in D&D games, I found fighting dwarves to act somehow like barbarians since they both share a love for bashing and killing, and less into books.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I still find this sort of change to be influenced by DK2's stupid counterparts, despite the Giant and Bile Demon being completely different Units in DK1. The Dragon is the same size as the Giant so they should also be immune to Wind if you make the Giant immune. It also really doesn't make sense when you classify Dragons as being larger and stronger than Giants when it comes to the Boulder Trap.
    The has things that a hasn't when speaking of and it's called wings. Since lacks of ranging skills (which isn't the case for the ) and is slow, I find it good to not throw him back far far away and make him to be easily killed under ranged attacks without being able to reach his target. I find the to always die rather easily, especially when his amount of health was rather low. As for the Boulder Trap thing, I can put the Giant along with the dragon if you want, but it would counter what edorien said about first regrouping them along with their lair size.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why, exactly?
    I think I already answered to this question once. It was because to make her act like the , but I can get rid of it if you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Weakening the Boulder Trap this way seems alright, though I question how you defined the sizes and such. Considering who's being placed in the Medium section, the Tentacle and maybe the Hell Hound, Demon Spawn, and Dwarf should be moved there. They don't seem to be as weak as the others really. The Warlock and Wizard, being physically weak and old, should be placed in the Weak category. The Bile Demon and Dragon should switch spots, and the Horned Reaper could also go into the Huge section.
    I don't see the to be medium. They're spikes on flat bodies. How could they be medium? For the rest, it sounds good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    A minor increase from 210 but that's fine. The Boulder Trap could kill up to 11 Creatures before and now it can only kill a max of 8, granted they're all small/weak. It still could be better though, as you haven't, to my knowledge at least, decreased the Boulder Trap damage.
    Hmm, I never though of decreasing its damage. I will check this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why exactly? Because they're magical? To be honest, the Wizard seems powerful enough as he is.
    Can you explain why you wouldn't like them to be able to see invisible enemies since there's already not so much creatures amongst all that can?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Weren't you the one who told me not to have too many Lair Enemies? The last one I don't mind since it makes sense but is also hardly an issue, though the former two I don't really understand at all. It just seems like you're trying to follow DK2 counterpart logic again.
    VS is definitely a must have. I mean, c'mon, they're almost the same. I can get rid of the VS if you want, but I thought it would have been good since both are said, in the fantasy universe, to live in mountains, mining gems in caverns, crafting useful objects. One is evil the other is good. But since dwarves make good skeletons, then that hatred becomes pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Er, why? The Dwarf and Archer I can kind of make sense out of but the Giant?
    Since he's slow, that makes him a good creature to get it. I can get rid of it if you want since it doesn't really affect anything right now, excepted during possession.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Is that even necessary? If anything, it only screws with custom made maps. Seems like a generally bad change.
    Doesn't it make sense for the strongest creature in the game to have the highest training cost?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Elaborate.
    stuff again. Wanna me to alter this?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    A better change to buff the Giant would be to increase the Giant's Strength since that's better fit within his role.
    Probably, but having him with slightly higher health isn't batter instead? I remember we once talked about his health and I really made him too strong. I think you kinda agreed my proposal of his health to be straight in the middle between the Barbarian and Knight's health.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Stop following DK2 logic.
    DK2 logic would make them immune to it which is still not the case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    The Defense seems like a good to decent change, but the Dexterity boost is practically useless. Why bother with that? Additionally, why is she getting Double Dexterity in the first place? I don't think she's an Archer type of Unit.
    Good point, I'm gonna change this back to default.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Explain.
    Simple: instead of leaving, he's gonna kill his friends until he joins another Keeper. Therefore, you better keep him happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    What's the point of this, exactly? I'm assuming you're trying to eliminate the Frozen/Meteor death animations due to them containing blood and the Skeleton having naught.
    Not really, I'm just freeing a few useless bytes. It's the same thing with the with his LEAVING_DUNGEON anger job. But say, if the state of being HUMANOID also affects other things than just be a creature that can turn to skeleton, then I'd like to know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Should you really do this? Demon Spawns have enough trouble finding usefulness as it is.
    What should I do with the Untrained time/anger stuff then if it's not for creatures that enjoy training? I cannot get rid of that indefinitely?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Good try but no, that alone won't make him more useful. He still can't dodge Spells and he'll only be lucky for so long with Melee. Plus hitting targets is meaningless when you have 10 Strength.
    It's still better than nothing, no? Afaik, there are some levels that involve to fight flies.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Ok that's just silly. The only time that will seriously take effect, aside from the obvious Possession, is when the Fly gets frozen over lava and drops in. With the Fly's low Health, he will die extremely fast, thus giving him a very random weakness.
    It's yet another Hurt By Lava thing that I was unsure about.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Well that seems alright, she definitely won't be as overpowered in how she escapes enemies nor in how she destroys them. I personally used a different method for balancing her.
    Can you share it with us?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    That doesn't even follow the logic behind the other "Hurt By Lava" changes. :/

    ...Or are you trying to make a pun by saying that he's burning weight...? Because it wasn't very funny.
    Hurt By Lava stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Questionable, I'd say to remove it. Keep in mind that he has Speed Monster, so you're bumping him up to 4 Melee Attacks + 2 Flame Breaths. He was already quite strong due to Speed + Melee/Flame Breath combo, no need to make him even stronger.
    Probably, but I still find them to die easily for nothing since they have a low armour. Even Skeletons seem to live longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Questionable... While the Ghost does need some more usefulness, I have to wonder if Hailstorm and Resurrection is the way to go about it.
    True. But that's all I found. At first, I wanted them to have both and , but that made them to be extremely strong. is already given to some creatures while only a few has . Resurrection is just an extra life for them. Otherwise, what should I do?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Also questionable. Orcs are supposed to be simple and rounded but reliable Units, and this contradicts with that. They're also supposed to be loyal judging by how they like to Guard.
    Again, true. I'm gonna get rid of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Wasn't it 150 by default? That should be a decrease then.
    It was 100 before. If it was 150, I would live it as it is. Wanna me to boost it or leave it this way?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why?
    This is to avoid the case when, under possession, you press the number key and the disabled but still active spell doesn't work because you must actually wait for the spell to be fully reloaded. I just tested once again and noticed I didn't put the correct values. Both ActionTime and FPActionTime are both of 750 now (the spell's duration). The only downside is that, under possession, you cannot keep the spell active. You must activate each time its duration end, but I don't think it's dramatical. Is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I'm unfamiliar with Must Obey, what kind of effect does this have?
    All I know of that spell is that it makes all creatures move slightly faster and force them to do the jobs you assigned them to do. The downside of that spell is that it may cause the damaged creatures to be unable to sleep in their lair. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, I don't know exactly why.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Pointless?
    I don't know. Test a multiplayer game, destroy the enemy player's dungeon, ask him to become a floating spirit and try the Turn to chicken spell on him. Try the Disease spell as well.
    A lot of modifications have to be done to the Floating Spirit because it can be affected by a lot of things while it shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why did you remove this exactly? Because it makes "logical" sense? They're going to pray regardless, it's just a question of whether they do something useful on their own or not before that.
    Ask edorien (see what he said above).

    There are two possibilities: PRAY first then RESEARCH (which is the default config for ghosts) or RESEARCH first then PRAY.

    The difference is, if you have both the Temple and Library built. Ghosts will go praying indefinitely instead of researching in the first case (you will therefore need to put them in the Library yourself or sell the Temple if you want them to research) or they will go straight researching until all spells and rooms have been researched then pray afterwards in the second case. Which case you prefer? Which case does make sense?

    Should I do the same with monks?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Logic doesn't always work well with Gameplay. Said Creatures already have low Health and die faster in lava anyways. This is basically overkill. The only one I would actually and ironically accept would be the Bile Demon, and that's due to them having a lot of Health.
    All right then. Would you accept the change for the too? Like I said earlier, he's still not immune to lava, he just loses health slower.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Same thing as above regarding logic and gameplay, though I do have something else to say here regarding the Hell Hound. Keep in mind that the Hell Hound isn't supposed to take much damage, he's an offensive Unit. He shouldn't be placed in a position where he'll die easily. While he does appear later on, he also trains very fast due to having Speed Monster at Level 3. Additionally, while he has an average-ish Strength of 55, being able to hit hit 2 times makes up for it and helps him deal high damage, especially with his noticeably higher Dexterity. That's not even counting Flame Breath, which you've also boosted in strength noticably. He'll do 130x2 Damage with it when he recieves it at Level 5 compared to 100x2. Honestly, I think he's good as he is. If you're going to add a second Melee, then decrease his Strength so he doesn't become too overpowered.
    I think I'm gonna leave him as he is (the ). What about the ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    That's exactly why there's two Melee Types to begin with, to offer different sounds.
    Don't worry, I already know. However, it would be nice to make a little something in the code to make a melee attacked becoming doubled.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    This is a very picky detail to change being as it really doesn't effect anything. Personally, I'd say leave it as Priestess. While you state that a Priest is generally a healer, the keyword is generally. This is DK, where things are twisted around a bit. Additionally, there's also the reason of nostalgia. People may prefer the Priestess/Witch terms simply because they're more familiar with them.
    True. And picky indeed. I'm gonna leave her as a Priestess.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    As I mentioned in the "A return on Conceal Spell" thread, Conceal is indeed a Stealth ability. What you're trying to do is transform it into another combat ability because you don't want it to be just a Possession ability, which is not necessarily a bad goal. However, good intentions won't make the game more balanced. Without an effective way to change Conceal into a useful and balanced combat ability, you'll make it worse than before. There's just too many problems with what you're trying to do.

    The first major issue is simply a question of balance with the Keeper variation of the spell. Obviously a casting on a Horned Reaper or a different offensive Creature like the Hell Hound would prove itself much more effective than using it on other Creatures. With such Creatures, it becomes rather abusable. Another abusable tactic is simply refreshing the casting on a Creature over and over again. The costs may add up after a while, but with a strong offensive Creature, 15 seconds for 500 Gold is quite a bargain. Additionally, utilizing Gold Costs as a balancing trait will result in similar effects as to the Lightning Spell. Players trying to play "fairly" may likely find such abusive opportunities discouraging as it will be difficult to judge where they're crossing the line between fair use and abuse.

    You can't really draw a line between balance and fairness with this sort of thing. You have to take in consideration how the offensive Creatures benifit compared to other Creatures. You can make it very costly to fit it better for the more useful/offensive Creature castings like the ones previously mentioned, but then it becomes more worthless with just about every other Creature. Doing the opposite just leaves an easy opportunity for very abusive tactics. There's not much of a "middle line" because the best you can do is make it so it's noticably overpowered on offensive Creatures and noticably underpowered on others.

    The second main problem relates to technical difficulties. The AI simply does not handle it very well. I won't go too into the details here because I know you also know of this issue, having brought it up before. However, I will mention something I noticed that you may not be familiar with, which is that if an invisible Creature attacks someone during battle, said attacked Creature may actually start fleeing from battle. I've suffered with these issues in my own patch previously with just the Thief having a permanent Invisibility. With a large number of Invisible Creatures, this may become a bit more problematic. Heroes can prove themselves to be especially annoying, as their AI will have them seek out Imps with highest priority.

    Lastly, the problem with the AI also contradicts with your goals. You're trying to expand it beyond just Player usage, yet enemy Keeper AI also does not know how to handle the spell properly. This generally defeats the purpose as in the end, it will be essentially a Player only Spell.

    Unless you can find a way to effectively solve these issues, I would keep Invisibility as it is.
    That's why I said it's the most difficult and complicated spell to alter and figure out.

    But for Melee fighting creatures, I thought about it. Melee fighting can be so strong and that's why I also decided to make both melee attacks to turn them visible back. But still with that, I know that it can mess up the balance a bit. I'm doing to my best to counter that, but find that I generally fail. It's just that I find annoying for that spell to be mainly efficient on Imps only since they're the ones that fight the less. Otherwise, it just serves for possession usage.

    Since it's too complicated, I think I'm gonna follow your recommendations and bring that spell back to default. But it will make all my changes for that spell to be made in vain...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    The problem with that is that you're using the wrong kind of information systematically. Lair sizes were obviously not meant to define this sort of thing, and using such information will result in things such as the Dragon doing more damage than the Bile Demon. This doesn't make sense from both a gameplay and realistic perspective. Boulder Traps deal fixed damage and the Bile Demon has the most Health, so he's obviously the best candidate for taking the hit from a Boulder. As such, he should better establish his anti-boulder usage by dealing the most damage to it. Additionally, he's extremely large and can grow to be nearly as big as the Boulder Trap itself, so it only makes "logical" sense for him to be the most effective against it.
    True. Will check this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Err, what? You mean using Sight of Evil over areas where enemy Imps are reinforcing walls to prevent them from reinforcing it while you tunnel your way over there to breach their dungeon? If so, that's extremely situational usage, actually. I've never used the method myself and don't think I'll start anytime soon. Usually by the time you're ready to attack, the enemy has either A) Fortified all their walls or B) Opened themselves up due to water or something. Only in the case of the former would that tactic be used and even then, it's hardly needed. If you know where an enemy is expanding out, you can just as easily ambush them before they reinforce the walls in most scenerios.

    As for the latter usage, I would say the Spell is broken due to that reason. It makes enemies retreat back to their Lair and Heroes back to their spawning point while simultaneously making them vulnerable as they refuse to attack even if they're being attacked. That's something that should be removed.
    Yeah, something has to be done in the code. I think it should just cause damage without making creatures to flee.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    One thing DragonsLover forgot to mention is that the Sleep Experience is bugged. Creatures don't get as much experience as they should be, and as a result, the original values for Sleep Experience caused very small differences. DragonsLover found that this could be fixed by increasing the values.

    In other words, it's not nearly as high as it looks.
    How is it bugged, just curious?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I'm not happy. I used up at least three hours writing this. Give me back my hours, damn you.
    Lol, same for me. Is it a tie?
    Last edited by DragonsLover; August 6th, 2012 at 03:07.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  3. #13
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Samurai doesn't leave the dungeon anymore when angry
    Explain.
    Simple: instead of leaving, he's gonna kill his friends until he joins another Keeper. Therefore, you better keep him happy.
    That...doesn't sound very honorable.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; August 6th, 2012 at 07:04.

  4. #14
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Hehe, yup, but that's his anger jobs already.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  5. #15
    Fly Trotim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    I think Ghosts and Monks should Pray first and have Research as Secondary. Making sure creatures do what's most productive is your job and just making it easier for the player doesn't justify changing the creature preferences. [edit: and by that I mean the preferences should be the creature's, and Monk and Ghost would definitely both rather pray than research.]

    Also I like increasing Fly Dex and Def by that much. It helps them escape, helps make battles vs Flies on custom maps unique, and makes sense flavor-wise. And high Hurt By Lava on the Fly is good because as you pointed out when a Fly does end up in lava it should die because it's so rare
    Last edited by Trotim; August 6th, 2012 at 22:53.

  6. #16
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Nope, and here's why: since the flees the danger, its ability for detecting invisible creatures becomes... useless, with the only exception when he has no choice to fight if he cannot flee. I can make the act like before, but he's gonna be killed in no time since he's so weak. I don't wanna see the that way. His goal is to explore and serve as temple ingredient. That way, I find a good idea for the to get that ability. Something I can do, if you want, is to make the stop detecting invisible enemies and give him the ability at high level. What would you say?
    Strangely I didn't think of that, but even so, the Fly will still notify the Player as you'll recieve a notification for battle.

    I'm not quite sure about the Hell Hound as it really depends on how you handle the Fly, since their roles as Scouts run along side each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    The isn't mean to fight, it is not: he's a manufacturer. It's a creature that is useful if you need to build traps and doors fast on the level by keeping a few of them. They can also serve as a last line of defence. I can increase the Manufacture value of the to 5, but that would be all. Also, I made a sacrifice that you may find useful if you need more fighters than builders.
    I think you misunderstand me a bit there. I'm aware that the Troll isn't meant to fight, what I'm saying is that that is his very weakness and reason as to why he's outclassed by the Orc. His strengths as a manufacturer simply aren't enough to pull his weight, especially compared to the Orc.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I find speed to be interesting since you could make slow tunnellers and fast tunnellers in levels. Imps also have that ability anyway. And I'm not sure to make them stronger and durable: they're the hero version of imps after all and therefore, should be kept weak. Their goal is principally to tunnel to the dungeon.
    Protect won't make them that much stronger due to their base armor though. The most notable effect is Lightning immunity, which shouldn't be a problem. Ironically, I think it keeps them at a slightly weaker level compared to you giving them Speed Monster as Speed Monster grants the better buff of doubling their offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Also, they are already way stronger than imps.
    And Imps are already way faster :P

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    The has things that a hasn't when speaking of and it's called wings. Since lacks of ranging skills (which isn't the case for the ) and is slow, I find it good to not throw him back far far away and make him to be easily killed under ranged attacks without being able to reach his target. I find the to always die rather easily, especially when his amount of health was rather low.
    Giants are supposed to be absolute beasts in Melee Combat, those who can smash through just about any enemy. Ranged combat, however, has always been their weakness and drawback. That's why they have such low movement speed to begin with. So I really don't see that as proper justification for Wind immunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    As for the Boulder Trap thing, I can put the Giant along with the dragon if you want, but it would counter what edorien said about first regrouping them along with their lair size.
    It doesn't really matter if it counters what edorien said about Lair Sizes but that's mainly because Lair Size is a bad way to go about it due to it defining an entirely different trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I think I already answered to this question once. It was because to make her act like the , but I can get rid of it if you want.
    If mimicing another Creature is the best justification you have for that then yes, I'd remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I don't see the to be medium. They're spikes on flat bodies. How could they be medium? For the rest, it sounds good to me.
    Well they seem to be pretty tough and made tougher in your patch where you gave them Protect. (Unless you removed it)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hmm, I never though of decreasing its damage. I will check this out.
    Seriously? That's actually quite funny but not for reasons you might think.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Can you explain why you wouldn't like them to be able to see invisible enemies since there's already not so much creatures amongst all that can?
    Due to the significant boost in power/usage that you're giving Invisibility, the power to counter it also becomes much more valuable. The Wizard is already strong enough as he is at higher levels, giving him this new power just covers up another weakness and makes him even harder to deal with compared to other enemies. It's more of a relative difficulty change. It doesn't apply as much if you remove Invisibility's effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    VS is definitely a must have. I mean, c'mon, they're almost the same. I can get rid of the VS if you want, but I thought it would have been good since both are said, in the fantasy universe, to live in mountains, mining gems in caverns, crafting useful objects. One is evil the other is good. But since dwarves make good skeletons, then that hatred becomes pointless.
    And because they're the same they should hate each others' guts? That really is trying to follow DK2's counterpart logic. Lair Enemies aren't chosen due to simularities, it's generally due to differences between the Creatures or a natural enemy sort of thing like with the Fly and Spider.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Since he's slow, that makes him a good creature to get it. I can get rid of it if you want since it doesn't really affect anything right now, excepted during possession.
    Slowness doesn't really make much sense to me for proper justification. There's lots of Creatures who are slow.

    Also, now I'm concerned. Are you implying that you seek out-of-possession usage from Grenade?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Doesn't it make sense for the strongest creature in the game to have the highest training cost?
    Considering that he only appears in the official campaigns at Max Level... No. Again, it can only screw with other people's map design.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    stuff again. Wanna me to alter this?
    Read previous response.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Probably, but having him with slightly higher health isn't batter instead? I remember we once talked about his health and I really made him too strong. I think you kinda agreed my proposal of his health to be straight in the middle between the Barbarian and Knight's health.
    I can't remember if I agreed to that or not but regardless of whether I did is irrelevant, being as that was a rather long time ago and my opinion on the subject may have changed based on experiences and such.

    Anyways, more Health would help him survive in more chaotic battles but more damage better fleshes out his Unit Role and gives him a level of specialty. You seem more focused on resolving a Creature's weak points rather than buffering up their strong points to make them better, which may not be best in all scenerios. The Giant is one of them, I would say, due to his more obvious role as a specialist unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    DK2 logic would make them immune to it which is still not the case here.
    I think you're trying to be very literal/technical in order to try and defend your position. Giants in DK2 are resistant to lava and you're mimicing that by making them resistant here. They already will last longer due to the increase in Health. Causing them to take half damage will make them last longer than even Bile Demons. (Both with and without the Bile Demon's lava damage change)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Simple: instead of leaving, he's gonna kill his friends until he joins another Keeper. Therefore, you better keep him happy.
    I agree with Moth. It goes against his character and for pointless "balancing" reasons, (At least, I assume that to the case based on what you state at the end) being as he's really not that hard to please to begin with. I think that trait would be better suited for the Dark Mistress in terms of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Not really, I'm just freeing a few useless bytes. It's the same thing with the with his LEAVING_DUNGEON anger job. But say, if the state of being HUMANOID also affects other things than just be a creature that can turn to skeleton, then I'd like to know them.
    I can't remember all of them, aside from the death animations that I mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    What should I do with the Untrained time/anger stuff then if it's not for creatures that enjoy training? I cannot get rid of that indefinitely?
    Use it on other Creatures then. As mentioned previously and probably numerous times before that, gameplay has the highest priority. The Demon Spawn needs more buffs, not weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    It's still better than nothing, no? Afaik, there are some levels that involve to fight flies.
    Seems like a pretty weak response. If you really are trying to buff up the Fly, then you should do more than that. You're changing the Level Design as well so you shouldn't encounter problems with Flies being too strong in certain levels due to a higher quantity of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Can you share it with us?
    No. You're not worthy. None of you are worthy.

    Spoiler



    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Probably, but I still find them to die easily for nothing since they have a low armour. Even Skeletons seem to live longer.
    Hell Hounds have more Health and Armor than Skeletons. :/ You're probably not using them right. They have a tendency to run into battle first due to high movement speed + speed, which then sets enemy priority onto them, which then results in them dying fast. You need to hold them back for a while on their leash.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    True. But that's all I found. At first, I wanted them to have both and , but that made them to be extremely strong. is already given to some creatures while only a few has . Resurrection is just an extra life for them. Otherwise, what should I do?
    The problem with giving the Ghost Hailstorm is that it does make him quite spammable and abusable. I'm sure many Players know how abusable Drain is with both Ghosts and Vampires. Hailstorm can really deal a lot of heavy damage and fast. With the Ghost having Rebound, he pretty much has defense against any possible counter for the Spell. This is obviously quite bad.

    As for Resurrection, I don't mind it. Yeah it's the Vampire's defining trait but the Ghost is only partially using it. It doesn't really make him all that much more powerful due to him only resurrecting at Level 10.

    Here is what I did with the Ghost in my patch.

    Spoiler



    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Again, true. I'm gonna get rid of that.
    Damn right I'm right.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    It was 100 before. If it was 150, I would live it as it is. Wanna me to boost it or leave it this way?
    I haven't fully balanced WoP myself but I would try to keep its damage on the lower side. Keep in mind how many targets it can hit at close range and that its recharge time isn't exactly high for a spell so potentially powerful. I don't think increasing its recharge time for the sake of damage is a good idea either as it will deal too much damage at the start of the battle. This can encourage abuse of Dragons or just generally make them overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    This is to avoid the case when, under possession, you press the number key and the disabled but still active spell doesn't work because you must actually wait for the spell to be fully reloaded. I just tested once again and noticed I didn't put the correct values. Both ActionTime and FPActionTime are both of 750 now (the spell's duration). The only downside is that, under possession, you cannot keep the spell active. You must activate each time its duration end, but I don't think it's dramatical. Is it?
    To solve the issue, wouldn't it be best to simply lower its recharge and effect time so that when it does occur, you don't have to wait as long to solve the issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I don't know. Test a multiplayer game, destroy the enemy player's dungeon, ask him to become a floating spirit and try the Turn to chicken spell on him. Try the Disease spell as well.
    A lot of modifications have to be done to the Floating Spirit because it can be affected by a lot of things while it shouldn't.
    Why's that really an issue? It wastes a Player's Gold to screw around with another Player, but it doesn't really effect the game too much. Plus the Floating Spirit can die to traps and such regardless.

    Anyways, I did actually test this by adding a Floating Spirit to the map. You can Chicken them and Disease them but you can also kill them with Lightning and Cave-In. So I really don't see it as an issue as it doesn't really change much.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ask edorien (see what he said above).
    :/

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    There are two possibilities: PRAY first then RESEARCH (which is the default config for ghosts) or RESEARCH first then PRAY.

    The difference is, if you have both the Temple and Library built. Ghosts will go praying indefinitely instead of researching in the first case (you will therefore need to put them in the Library yourself or sell the Temple if you want them to research) or they will go straight researching until all spells and rooms have been researched then pray afterwards in the second case. Which case you prefer? Which case does make sense?

    Should I do the same with monks?
    You don't have to tell me that, I pretty much know this as that's why I'm presenting it as an issue.

    Anyways, both the Ghost and Monk should research beforehand. Read down below for a more detailed response.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    All right then. Would you accept the change for the too? Like I said earlier, he's still not immune to lava, he just loses health slower.
    Considering there really is no justification for that to begin with, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I think I'm gonna leave him as he is (the ). What about the ?
    The Avatar is not an issue. It's the Hell Hound that's the problem. I think you're mainly doing this based on personal experiences with the Hell Hound due to what you've said previously. I generally don't have the same problems with him, but that's when I hold him back a bit and let the other Units rush in. When I don't, yes he does seem to die as quickly as you describe.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Since it's too complicated, I think I'm gonna follow your recommendations and bring that spell back to default. But it will make all my changes for that spell to be made in vain...
    Well you shouldn't be afraid to undo changes if its for a better final result. I had to can several ideas I had for my patch for a better final result, and you'll see that when I finally release it. I wanted to give the Hell Hound double melee as well to make him a sort of melee DPS unit and I also gave the Horned Reaper double melee. Problem was that I had the idea of giving permanent melee Invisibility to the Thief and Ghost, and to accomplish that, I had to sacrifice the double melee. I also had to redo the Spider because I thought of an interesting gimmick to give to him to better define him as a unique unit.

    You can always log the unused changes like what I do. (Well I do it for the bigger unused changes but yeah)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    How is it bugged, just curious?
    You brought it up yourself? The original values given to them was based around the idea that they would gain constant sleep experience, but that's not the case as they obtain the EXP every so often.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Lol, same for me. Is it a tie?
    No, I win. I always win! DX<

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim View Post
    I think Ghosts and Monks should Pray first and have Research as Secondary. Making sure creatures do what's most productive is your job and just making it easier for the player doesn't justify changing the creature preferences. [edit: and by that I mean the preferences should be the creature's, and Monk and Ghost would definitely both rather pray than research.]
    Not necessarily true, especially in the Ghost's case where he's struggling to find usefulness as it is. Not to mention, productivity before personal preference has generally been the rule that Creatures with two jobs follow in the original game. The Dark Mistress, Dragon, and Orc all try to work more productively. It can be said that what they're trying to do is please their master by working productively.

    The Creatures who don't follow this are the Vampire and Ghost, both of which are less common Creatures to be encountered. In the Vampire's case, he's generally supposed to be more difficult to manage so its more understandable/exceptable. The Ghost, however, really lacks a reason behind this. I think this should be changed.

    This change does help out the Ghost because it helps minimizes unnecessary micro-management, an issue that becomes more problematic with larger numbers. The Temple is obtained right after the Torture Chamber, so it's also very likely that Players will encounter this issue.

    As for the Monk, I think it's perfectly within his character to try and benefit research first compared to going over to the Temple and praying. I definitely would define him as being loyal, and that is reason enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trotim View Post
    Also I like increasing Fly Dex and Def by that much. It helps them escape, helps make battles vs Flies on custom maps unique, and makes sense flavor-wise. And high Hurt By Lava on the Fly is good because as you pointed out when a Fly does end up in lava it should die because it's so rare
    The rarity of it is actually very poor justification. Additionally, it only makes the issue worse in specific ways. When a Creature has a general weakness, you'll know to prepare to deal with said weakness when the time comes. You might choose not to send a certain Creature in battle as a result of said weakness, for example. Example being the Giant's low movement speed compared to an Archer's high movement and ranged preference. You'll know not to send him out and it would be bad strategizing for you to do so anyways.

    However, a weakness like this, where it only occurs in very specific situations and with really bad results, is simply annoying to deal with. You can't really predict it as it's something you won't think about due to its rarity. The results occur so quickly that you may not even be able to reasonably react quick enough to do anything about it. It ends up becoming more random and the rarity doesn't make it any less annoying for when it does happen.

    Admittedly, being as we're talking about the Fly who will still be rather useless in this patch, the issue really isn't that bad (yet). However, the point still stands and will take more into effect should DragonsLover decide to try and expand on the Fly's usefulness like I have in my own patch.

    Regardless, I still think it's unnecessary overkill as the Fly couldn't normally survive falling into the lava while frozen unless he's mid leveled with no one attacking him. (Unlikely as that's how he got frozen to begin with) All it really does is kill a Player's chance to react to the situation and possibly save his Creature.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

    LOL, WFTO

  7. #17
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Strangely I didn't think of that, but even so, the Fly will still notify the Player as you'll recieve a notification for battle.

    I'm not quite sure about the Hell Hound as it really depends on how you handle the Fly, since their roles as Scouts run along side each other.
    So, what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I think you misunderstand me a bit there. I'm aware that the Troll isn't meant to fight, what I'm saying is that that is his very weakness and reason as to why he's outclassed by the Orc. His strengths as a manufacturer simply aren't enough to pull his weight, especially compared to the Orc.
    Oh, okay. Yeah, I misunderstood and I see what you mean now. You want the to be less efficient in manufacture as well as making the more efficient. Sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Protect won't make them that much stronger due to their base armor though. The most notable effect is Lightning immunity, which shouldn't be a problem. Ironically, I think it keeps them at a slightly weaker level compared to you giving them Speed Monster as Speed Monster grants the better buff of doubling their offense.
    How about giving them both spells? Personally, I thought it would have been a good idea to make tunnellers tunnel at different speeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Giants are supposed to be absolute beasts in Melee Combat, those who can smash through just about any enemy. Ranged combat, however, has always been their weakness and drawback. That's why they have such low movement speed to begin with. So I really don't see that as proper justification for Wind immunity.
    Since they are slow, it doesn't take that much time for them to be killed, especially if you have a small group of or attacking them with their strong ranged abilities. By making them immune to , it gives them a better chance to live a bit longer and be able to reach them. Anyway, generally, in the case of , they generally need the intervention of to activate their , making to fight more often. High melee damage VS high health, sounds a good combination to me. Finally, doesn't occur that much often after all so I really don't see why it would become a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Well they seem to be pretty tough and made tougher in your patch where you gave them Protect. (Unless you removed it)
    Do you see the Tentacle having above in the list? No. I removed it and instead, I increased their basic armour slightly to 65. The main reason is that, I don't wanted them to be immune to since they're aquatic beasts and water + = ... I think you understand. Anyway, I just looked about his stats, and I think you're right, he should be placed in medium ones since is already there.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Seriously? That's actually quite funny but not for reasons you might think.
    Explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Due to the significant boost in power/usage that you're giving Invisibility, the power to counter it also becomes much more valuable. The Wizard is already strong enough as he is at higher levels, giving him this new power just covers up another weakness and makes him even harder to deal with compared to other enemies. It's more of a relative difficulty change. It doesn't apply as much if you remove Invisibility's effects.
    Alrighty, I'm gonna get rid of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    And because they're the same they should hate each others' guts? That really is trying to follow DK2's counterpart logic. Lair Enemies aren't chosen due to simularities, it's generally due to differences between the Creatures or a natural enemy sort of thing like with the Fly and Spider.
    Stop talking about DK2 please, I don't care that much of that game and I never base my changes to it.
    You said it's generally due to natural enemies, that's the reason why I did that one. is natural enemy of and is natural enemy of . Mighty evil fighter against mighty good fighter. *Sigh*
    While on it, a would be natural enemy of . You ALWAYS see that in legends: the mighty knight having to defeat a dragon to save a princess or a village from that beast.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Also, now I'm concerned. Are you implying that you seek out-of-possession usage from Grenade?
    Yup, but WAIT before thinking anything silly about it. It would become a out-of-possession usage only if:
    1. It doesn't move things, only creatures.
    2. It only affects and damages enemies, not friends.
    3. It is used as a ranged attack, not a melee one.

    It could become a nice spell that would mess up his enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Considering that he only appears in the official campaigns at Max Level... No. Again, it can only screw with other people's map design.
    Okay, okay... I'll return it back to default.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I can't remember if I agreed to that or not but regardless of whether I did is irrelevant, being as that was a rather long time ago and my opinion on the subject may have changed based on experiences and such.

    Anyways, more Health would help him survive in more chaotic battles but more damage better fleshes out his Unit Role and gives him a level of specialty. You seem more focused on resolving a Creature's weak points rather than buffering up their strong points to make them better, which may not be best in all scenerios. The Giant is one of them, I would say, due to his more obvious role as a specialist unit.
    Maybe we could do some kind of balance? In my case, I still disagree to have him having less health than the , 'cause he doesn't physically look to have less health. It doesn't bother me to set his health to a value slightly higher, like 725 or 750 instead of 825 and at the same time, increase his damage slightly as well to 110 or 120. What would you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I agree with Moth. It goes against his character and for pointless "balancing" reasons, (At least, I assume that to the case based on what you state at the end) being as he's really not that hard to please to begin with. I think that trait would be better suited for the Dark Mistress in terms of character.
    All right, I'm gonna revert this back.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I can't remember all of them, aside from the death animations that I mentioned.
    Will check this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Use it on other Creatures then. As mentioned previously and probably numerous times before that, gameplay has the highest priority. The Demon Spawn needs more buffs, not weaknesses.
    I think I'm gonna leave it to the only then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Seems like a pretty weak response. If you really are trying to buff up the Fly, then you should do more than that. You're changing the Level Design as well so you shouldn't encounter problems with Flies being too strong in certain levels due to a higher quantity of them.
    I can lower the values if you want. I thought that since flies aren't that strong in combat, they could at least deal sufficient damage before they die so easily. Flies are mean to be difficult to hit and be good to aim. If not, then I don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    The problem with giving the Ghost Hailstorm is that it does make him quite spammable and abusable. I'm sure many Players know how abusable Drain is with both Ghosts and Vampires. Hailstorm can really deal a lot of heavy damage and fast. With the Ghost having Rebound, he pretty much has defense against any possible counter for the Spell. This is obviously quite bad.

    As for Resurrection, I don't mind it. Yeah it's the Vampire's defining trait but the Ghost is only partially using it. It doesn't really make him all that much more powerful due to him only resurrecting at Level 10.
    That's why I only give that spell at level 10. Being a cold based creature, I thought it would have fit him good, especially when he lacks dealing good damage. I don't really see the combination along with to be bad, I mean, even the has it. Once his spell wears off, he won't resist that much. But if you still think it's abusable, I can use another projectile spell.

    From what I see in your changes, removing is useless since he'll NEVER use it, excepted under possession. As for and , that somewhat makes the act like a weaker version of the .

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I haven't fully balanced WoP myself but I would try to keep its damage on the lower side. Keep in mind how many targets it can hit at close range and that its recharge time isn't exactly high for a spell so potentially powerful. I don't think increasing its recharge time for the sake of damage is a good idea either as it will deal too much damage at the start of the battle. This can encourage abuse of Dragons or just generally make them overpowered.
    I understand. is principally mean to push creatures away so that creatures with that spell can use their ranged attacks more often. So far, I just realized it doesn't push that much so, there's some extra work to do. I even posted to ask Mefisto.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    To solve the issue, wouldn't it be best to simply lower its recharge and effect time so that when it does occur, you don't have to wait as long to solve the issue?
    True. I'm gonna check this out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why's that really an issue? It wastes a Player's Gold to screw around with another Player, but it doesn't really effect the game too much. Plus the Floating Spirit can die to traps and such regardless.

    Anyways, I did actually test this by adding a Floating Spirit to the map. You can Chicken them and Disease them but you can also kill them with Lightning and Cave-In. So I really don't see it as an issue as it doesn't really change much.
    So far, it's true, it doesn't affect the game that much. But like I said, Floating Spirits should be immune to everything. Floating Spirits are creatures that are used through multiplayer games. They are only there for multiplayer losing players when they click on the "Possession" icon to take a first person look at the enemy players' dungeon without affecting anything. The problem now is that, losing players can actually trigger traps and being affected by spells which should be avoided totally. They should only act as spectators.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    You brought it up yourself? The original values given to them was based around the idea that they would gain constant sleep experience, but that's not the case as they obtain the EXP every so often.
    Okay, right. I just didn't remember. Yeah, they gain constant sleep experience only while they're asleep in their lairs, but if they aren't badly damaged, they just take experience from times to times since they wake up and wander around for a few seconds at some occasions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    No, I win. I always win! DX<
    "Pathetic creature, I should crush you in an instant!"
    Dark Gods always win you lil' prick!

    For Pray/Research for and , I'm gonna set it to:
    Primary job = Research
    Secondary job = Pray
    'nuff said
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  8. #18

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Just rememered one thing: if flame breath isn't a continuous attack, how dragons use the "training room" in Salaars' realm (in Ancient Keeper)?

  9. #19
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    They use it the same way. The difference is that, now, it's slower and you must also watch the 's health. When it's too low, do a break to heal him fully and repeat.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  10. #20

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Hello DragonsLover,
    when do you think of releasing your new patch for KeeperFX?
    I have played KeeperFX and tried the Ancient Keeper campaign, but with the new modifications, it was impossible to beat mission 13 (Sloth), it seems to me that with your changes it will be rebalanced once again. Apart from that, I read all the changes you plan to make and I think that they are quite good and needed.
    Best regards,
    jusseppe

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