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Thread: Modifications of my upcoming patch

  
  1. #21
    Dark God DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    And here's another one... I know all that already, you're not the first one mentioning this problem.

    It will be released as soon as it's ready. It requires a lot of work. On my todo list, I have to check for campaign ensigns' zoom problem when they are too far on the edge of the screen, I have to adapt my patch for the latest version of KeeperFX (I'm still under 0.37c), I have to last-check all the texts, undo all the changes mentioned above, last-check dexterity and defence values, and a few more, like include the level editor into KeeperFX, remove tons of unused files... so that everything will be better.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  2. #22
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Been too long since I was able to get around to this, and remember to do so. I'll be brief and to the point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    So, what now?
    There's not much I can tell you. Seriously speaking, the Fly will probably have to remain weak and outclassed in your patch. The problem you face is different from mine. You can't have too radical a change as you're trying to keep in touch with the original. I, on the other hand, do not have such boundaries set for me as I'm going entirely for balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    How about giving them both spells? Personally, I thought it would have been a good idea to make tunnellers tunnel at different speeds.
    You could. Speed doesn't give them that much of a boost it seems. Using an Imp for mining would prove effective if you really wanted a faster mining process.

    One other thing. I plan not to give the Tunneller Protect because I am going to give him 210 AMR instead. Protect, unlike Speed, isn't automatically cast. There's an exploit where you can lightning Tunnellers and prevent Heroes from reaching you. Giving them high Armor will get around that by nullifying the spell. Also, you may want to remove Teleport as Tunnellers can sometimes teleport away and leave their party behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Since they are slow, it doesn't take that much time for them to be killed, especially if you have a small group of or attacking them with their strong ranged abilities. By making them immune to , it gives them a better chance to live a bit longer and be able to reach them. Anyway, generally, in the case of , they generally need the intervention of to activate their , making to fight more often. High melee damage VS high health, sounds a good combination to me. Finally, doesn't occur that much often after all so I really don't see why it would become a problem.
    Well Giants are supposed to be weak to such ranged creatures to begin with. If it doesn't give them that much of an advantage either way, I don't see the point of adding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Explain.
    Well in my mind earlier, I had this jokish thought of you saying "Hm, I never would have thought about decreasing its damage... GENIUS!" or something along those lines. It was silly because it was like such an obvious change to me, as the reason why the Boulder Trap is so overpowered is because it one-shot kills so many creatures. To hear you actually say you never thought of it after that jokish thought of mine is what made it quite funny for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    You said it's generally due to natural enemies, that's the reason why I did that one. is natural enemy of and is natural enemy of . Mighty evil fighter against mighty good fighter. *Sigh*
    Since when? And why?

    Following that line of logic, Wizard/Warlock, Monk/Vampire, Imp/Tunneller, Troll/Dwarf, and maybe even Fairy/Fly should also be Lair Enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Yup, but WAIT before thinking anything silly about it. It would become a out-of-possession usage only if:
    1. It doesn't move things, only creatures.
    2. It only affects and damages enemies, not friends.
    3. It is used as a ranged attack, not a melee one.

    It could become a nice spell that would mess up his enemies.
    Yes it would, but you are forgetting something. It would also make for a very radical change compared to the original. Additionally, changing the coding of it would probably effect all other explosions like the ones from Lightning and Meteor. I'm fairly certain it all refers to the same explosion coding but of course I have no way of knowing for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Maybe we could do some kind of balance? In my case, I still disagree to have him having less health than the , 'cause he doesn't physically look to have less health. It doesn't bother me to set his health to a value slightly higher, like 725 or 750 instead of 825 and at the same time, increase his damage slightly as well to 110 or 120. What would you say?
    You mean a compromise? Balance usually isn't achieved by making a compromise like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    That's why I only give that spell at level 10. Being a cold based creature, I thought it would have fit him good, especially when he lacks dealing good damage.
    How exactly is he "cold based"? Also, not all creatures are meant for dealing damage. The Vampire is my best example of this, especially because I know you know it to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I don't really see the combination along with to be bad, I mean, even the has it. Once his spell wears off, he won't resist that much.
    The Wizard is meant to be a much stronger opponent. Not to mention, he's not a Melee Creature so it's not as powerful in his hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    But if you still think it's abusable, I can use another projectile spell.
    I don't think I realized as much or acknowledged that his Hailstorm was at Level 10. However, now the problem still lies with him not really being built for damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    From what I see in your changes, removing is useless since he'll NEVER use it, excepted under possession.
    Truly? Interesting. I didn't realize that. Nevertheless, I think he's good enough without it. I don't need a Possession only spell for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    As for and , that somewhat makes the act like a weaker version of the .
    Fireball and Navigating Missile make him like a weaker version of the Warlock also. Fireball in my patch has been adjusted to be more like an early version of Meteor, a low leveled burst type spell.

    The point is, he's meant to be like a weaker version of others. He's an expendable creature. The very goal I'm trying to get with him is to make him have rounded capabilities with a series of low leveled spells. I don't want to give him any specialization without a defined weakness or I'll run into the problem he and the Skeleton encountered before; being super powered in large numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I understand. is principally mean to push creatures away so that creatures with that spell can use their ranged attacks more often. So far, I just realized it doesn't push that much so, there's some extra work to do. I even posted to ask Mefisto.
    I don't think WoP is primarily meant to push creatures back, that's more like a bonus effect. In the original though, that was all it was good for.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    So far, it's true, it doesn't affect the game that much. But like I said, Floating Spirits should be immune to everything. Floating Spirits are creatures that are used through multiplayer games. They are only there for multiplayer losing players when they click on the "Possession" icon to take a first person look at the enemy players' dungeon without affecting anything. The problem now is that, losing players can actually trigger traps and being affected by spells which should be avoided totally. They should only act as spectators.
    Well nothing I can do about the trap bit, and it'd be quite a while before even Mefisto could do something about it, I'm sure.
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  3. #23
    Dark God DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    There's not much I can tell you. Seriously speaking, the Fly will probably have to remain weak and outclassed in your patch. The problem you face is different from mine. You can't have too radical a change as you're trying to keep in touch with the original. I, on the other hand, do not have such boundaries set for me as I'm going entirely for balance.
    The will remain weak. I'm just making it to flee dangers to avoid death. Nothing more, nothing less. The will just get a little extra thing. Nothing major that would cause an unbalance since the invisibility spell will return back as normal anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    You could. Speed doesn't give them that much of a boost it seems. Using an Imp for mining would prove effective if you really wanted a faster mining process.

    One other thing. I plan not to give the Tunneller Protect because I am going to give him 210 AMR instead. Protect, unlike Speed, isn't automatically cast. There's an exploit where you can lightning Tunnellers and prevent Heroes from reaching you. Giving them high Armor will get around that by nullifying the spell. Also, you may want to remove Teleport as Tunnellers can sometimes teleport away and leave their party behind.
    Sure, but I'm speaking here where Tunnellers aren't under our control. A low level Tunneller for slow mining, a high level Tunneller for fast mining which could bring more diversity in levels where tunnellers are mostly implied.

    As for the other thing, I can understand what do you mean. I know that exploit. But it won't solve the problem totally, especially if the SOE spell is available on the level. It surely will work on levels that don't have it, but still, it's not a creature problem, it's a game mechanic flaw. Something has to be done in the code to avoid the Lightning spell to spread through walls. If it's too much complicated, there's another solution that Mefisto could maybe try to code, it would be to add a new IMMUNE_TO_LIGHTNING creature property so that the creature won't be affected to the lightning spell in any ways. We could even use it along with the Ghost since you talked about that too. I'd prefer such thing than boosting his armour. As for Teleport, I don't know. I think it was meant for the tunneller to be able to teleport at level 10. Perhaps it was once planned that not only the tunneller would teleport, but the whole party would too. That would make the game more challenging I think. Perhaps it was too complicated to do so that, instead of teleporting, they simply decided to make the party to rush. I don't know, really. There's not so much level 10 tunnellers anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Well Giants are supposed to be weak to such ranged creatures to begin with. If it doesn't give them that much of an advantage either way, I don't see the point of adding it.
    They will remain weak to ranged creatures. I just wanna give them a little extra chance against them. Come on, they're tough heavy guys, they can't be blown away like would do a sheet of paper. Is it that much of an issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Well in my mind earlier, I had this jokish thought of you saying "Hm, I never would have thought about decreasing its damage... GENIUS!" or something along those lines. It was silly because it was like such an obvious change to me, as the reason why the Boulder Trap is so overpowered is because it one-shot kills so many creatures. To hear you actually say you never thought of it after that jokish thought of mine is what made it quite funny for me.
    I can't think of everything. I'm not perfect. I need people like you to figure out stuff I may be missing.
    Now, reducing the Boulder Trap health can be a possibility, but it wouldn't be as much fun if the boulder trap would do just a few kills. Don't forget that it will also shatter more easily by hitting walls and obstacles, making the Boulder Trap rather weak. The Boulder must support some hits from the hand in order to make it interesting. If the Boulder crumbles with 2 or 3 hits, it would suck. Instead, the health should remain almost the same, but it should be better to modify the amount of health the creatures deal to the trap. This way, the Boulder will remain tough, but the hardness of creatures will cause the trap to shatter more or less easily. That's what I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Since when? And why?

    Following that line of logic, Wizard/Warlock, Monk/Vampire, Imp/Tunneller, Troll/Dwarf, and maybe even Fairy/Fly should also be Lair Enemies.
    Fine, fine. I'll remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Yes it would, but you are forgetting something. It would also make for a very radical change compared to the original. Additionally, changing the coding of it would probably effect all other explosions like the ones from Lightning and Meteor. I'm fairly certain it all refers to the same explosion coding but of course I have no way of knowing for sure.
    Probably. But at the same time, I don't think so. Shooting objects with the Meteor don't really cause things to move. The explosion is surely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    You mean a compromise? Balance usually isn't achieved by making a compromise like that.
    That's what I tried to say. Sorry for my imperfect words. But still, why it wouldn't work? A slightly decreased of health I previously boosted versus a slightly increased of strength. Sounds fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    How exactly is he "cold based"? Also, not all creatures are meant for dealing damage. The Vampire is my best example of this, especially because I know you know it to be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    The Wizard is meant to be a much stronger opponent. Not to mention, he's not a Melee Creature so it's not as powerful in his hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I don't think I realized as much or acknowledged that his Hailstorm was at Level 10. However, now the problem still lies with him not really being built for damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Fireball and Navigating Missile make him like a weaker version of the Warlock also. Fireball in my patch has been adjusted to be more like an early version of Meteor, a low leveled burst type spell.

    The point is, he's meant to be like a weaker version of others. He's an expendable creature. The very goal I'm trying to get with him is to make him have rounded capabilities with a series of low leveled spells. I don't want to give him any specialization without a defined weakness or I'll run into the problem he and the Skeleton encountered before; being super powered in large numbers.
    Ghosts are never hot. Spirits are known to be cold. But anyway, I think you're right, I'm gonna leave it as it is, by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Truly? Interesting. I didn't realize that. Nevertheless, I think he's good enough without it. I don't need a Possession only spell for him.
    Yup. Wind spell is only triggered when the creature suffers from the Poison gas. That's what causes the creature to cast it. Since Ghosts and Vampires don't suffer the Poison Gas, they never cast it. It is there for Possession use only. And no, they'll keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I don't think WoP is primarily meant to push creatures back, that's more like a bonus effect. In the original though, that was all it was good for.
    In my case, I'm pretty sure it was the main purpose of that spell. A spell that both causes damage and pushes enemies around. That way, creatures that own it can use their ranged attacks more often.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Well nothing I can do about the trap bit, and it'd be quite a while before even Mefisto could do something about it, I'm sure.
    Unfortunately.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  4. #24
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Sure, but I'm speaking here where Tunnellers aren't under our control. A low level Tunneller for slow mining, a high level Tunneller for fast mining which could bring more diversity in levels where tunnellers are mostly implied.
    I know what you're talking about. I just said that it doesn't give them much of a boost. I tested it. If you really want a faster mining process, it's better to use an Imp.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    As for the other thing, I can understand what do you mean. I know that exploit. But it won't solve the problem totally, especially if the SOE spell is available on the level. It surely will work on levels that don't have it, but still, it's not a creature problem, it's a game mechanic flaw. Something has to be done in the code to avoid the Lightning spell to spread through walls. If it's too much complicated, there's another solution that Mefisto could maybe try to code, it would be to add a new IMMUNE_TO_LIGHTNING creature property so that the creature won't be affected to the lightning spell in any ways.
    It's the best solution available at the moment without altering Level Design. I don't want to have to wait or to rely on Mefisto adding another feature in order to bring balance, and you shouldn't either. He already has enough work to do as it is, I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    We could even use it along with the Ghost since you talked about that too. I'd prefer such thing than boosting his armour.
    No, it wouldn't be quite the same with the Ghost. If I wanted the Ghost to be immune to Lightning absolutely, then I'd give it to him at Level 1 like the Horned Reaper. Instead, I intended it to be a sort of bonus for higher leveled Ghosts.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    As for Teleport, I don't know. I think it was meant for the tunneller to be able to teleport at level 10. Perhaps it was once planned that not only the tunneller would teleport, but the whole party would too. That would make the game more challenging I think. Perhaps it was too complicated to do so that, instead of teleporting, they simply decided to make the party to rush. I don't know, really. There's not so much level 10 tunnellers anyways.
    Somehow, I highly doubt that. The reason for giving them Teleport could be to allow them to move faster by instantly warping to the mining point, or possibly just as a spell to rival the Imp.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    They will remain weak to ranged creatures. I just wanna give them a little extra chance against them.
    If your on the same page as I when you want them to remain weak to ranged creatures, then why are you trying to "give them an extra chance"? To be perfectly honest, I think that's a pretty lame excuse to try and add that in. It makes a difference between a total of two ranged units, and one of them is a Hero. So it doesn't really "give them an extra chance" at all, even.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Come on, they're tough heavy guys, they can't be blown away like would do a sheet of paper.
    Barbarian, Dragon, Horned Reaper, Knight, and perhaps a few others would also have to be immune if you want to be consistent with that line of logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Is it that much of an issue?
    To be honest, I don't think it in itself is so much of an issue as is your reasoning behind it, at this point. You've persisted with trying to get me to accept the idea since the beginning. You haven't let go like you have for other ideas either. I just find this to be odd considering that even you seem acknowledge it as being a more insignificant change. I think you have some sort of more personal attachment to the concept and you keep trying to prove it's actually a good idea.

    And you should know that none of this is about pleasing me. Ultimately, this is your patch and you can just do whatever the hell you want with it. No matter what I say, it is you in the end that decides to impliment something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I can't think of everything. I'm not perfect. I need people like you to figure out stuff I may be missing.
    It's actually a pretty easy solution to come up with. It's not about trying to think of every possible change for something unbalanced. It's about identifying and understanding what the actual problem is. Once you do that, coming up with a proper solution is much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Now, reducing the Boulder Trap health can be a possibility, but it wouldn't be as much fun if the boulder trap would do just a few kills. Don't forget that it will also shatter more easily by hitting walls and obstacles, making the Boulder Trap rather weak. The Boulder must support some hits from the hand in order to make it interesting. If the Boulder crumbles with 2 or 3 hits, it would suck. Instead, the health should remain almost the same, but it should be better to modify the amount of health the creatures deal to the trap. This way, the Boulder will remain tough, but the hardness of creatures will cause the trap to shatter more or less easily. That's what I did.
    What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about reducing the Boulder Trap's DAMAGE, not it's Health. Reducing its Health will just make everything messed up in balance. It won't solve the issue either because the Boulder Trap will still instant kill any Non-Horny. The problem is that it's damage is so ridiculously high that it instant kills creatures that were so heavily invested upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Shooting objects with the Meteor don't really cause things to move. The explosion is surely different.
    I never said Meteor did that, did I? I was referring to the explosions. Your latter statement just repeats that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    That's what I tried to say. Sorry for my imperfect words. But still, why it wouldn't work? A slightly decreased of health I previously boosted versus a slightly increased of strength. Sounds fair.
    Why wouldn't it work? Well it's not that it necessarily wouldn't, but it isn't the best solution out there. If you have two paths, it's faster to go down one of them rather than trying to walk through the thick hedge between them.

    The problem with compromises in general is that it isn't an answer to a problem in balance. It is only meant to make both arguing parties happy by allowing them to have some say. But who cares if a party has any say at all? What is important is the final product. Trying to do a little of both won't make things balanced. It's like choosing between having a tank or a blitzer. Trying to go the middle path will just cause you to end up with neither.

    If anything, giving out a compromise shows a misunderstanding of what is the issue. It also makes it look like you're trying to please me more than you're trying to find the balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Ghosts are never hot. Spirits are known to be cold. But anyway, I think you're right, I'm gonna leave it as it is, by default.
    I don't exactly agree with that statement but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Yup. Wind spell is only triggered when the creature suffers from the Poison gas. That's what causes the creature to cast it. Since Ghosts and Vampires don't suffer the Poison Gas, they never cast it. It is there for Possession use only. And no, they'll keep it.
    No, they won't. This is my patch damn it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    In my case, I'm pretty sure it was the main purpose of that spell. A spell that both causes damage and pushes enemies around. That way, creatures that own it can use their ranged attacks more often.
    I still think otherwise. However, there's really no way to prove this sort of thing.
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  5. #25
    Beetle Stanislas Dolcini's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Sorry to interrupt that mighty battle of yours but a week ago I was talking about the tunneller with mefisto and he said that he would make two categories of creatures NOT_IMP and IMP so maybe when he will be done with that tunnellers will become much more efficient but they will still have no fear.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislas Dolcini View Post
    Sorry to interrupt that mighty battle of yours but a week ago I was talking about the tunneller with mefisto and he said that he would make two categories of creatures NOT_IMP and IMP so maybe when he will be done with that tunnellers will become much more efficient but they will still have no fear.
    Yes, that would make Sloth just that wee bit easier (I had to edit the level to give myself 12 just so I had a chance at survival. It was that difficult)

  7. #27
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislas Dolcini View Post
    Sorry to interrupt that mighty battle of yours but a week ago I was talking about the tunneller with mefisto and he said that he would make two categories of creatures NOT_IMP and IMP so maybe when he will be done with that tunnellers will become much more efficient but they will still have no fear.
    What does that have to do with anything related to the argument? We're not talking about converted Tunnellers.
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  8. #28
    Beetle Stanislas Dolcini's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    At some part of the argument you were talking about tunnellers efficiency.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislas Dolcini View Post
    At some part of the argument you were talking about tunnellers efficiency.
    We were talking about Hero Tunnellers and how fast it takes them to mine towards the Player's dungeon, with and without speed. I made a comparison to the Imp because the Imp is so much faster at mining than a Tunneller. So if a Level Designer wants a faster Hero Party, it's better to use an Imp.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Sorry if I TL: DR, and maybe this was already discussed about, but I think the Knight should be powered with at least one spell: I know he has already Rebound (and even Word Of Power, in the previous patch), but against the Drain/Lightning combo he is useless, and I think he should have at least a chance to fight against a group of Mistresses...

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