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Thread: Modifications of my upcoming patch

  
  1. #31
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    Sorry if I TL: DR, and maybe this was already discussed about, but I think the Knight should be powered with at least one spell: I know he has already Rebound (and even Word Of Power, in the previous patch), but against the Drain/Lightning combo he is useless, and I think he should have at least a chance to fight against a group of Mistresses...
    Protect, it'll extend his life longer.

    And even with that, well the problem is that he's not fast enough to even reach Dark Mistresses. He would need a series of spells to properly stand up against them or have even a remote chance. Even with Meteor or Lightning, it's not enough to take out a group of Dark Mistresses. They have too much Health and if they have Drain, they'll regain some of it back.

    Another solution may be simply in the level design because, even if the Knight is the "boss" of the level, who is to say he cannot have support? That would be the best bet to taking out certain other groups without making the Knight an annoying pain to deal with.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Protect, it'll extend his life longer.

    And even with that, well the problem is that he's not fast enough to even reach Dark Mistresses. He would need a series of spells to properly stand up against them or have even a remote chance. Even with Meteor or Lightning, it's not enough to take out a group of Dark Mistresses. They have too much Health and if they have Drain, they'll regain some of it back.

    Another solution may be simply in the level design because, even if the Knight is the "boss" of the level, who is to say he cannot have support? That would be the best bet to taking out certain other groups without making the Knight an annoying pain to deal with.
    I've been editing the levels of the Vanilla campaign, and have been giving the Knight support in the form of and and beyond level 7, they can give a hard time.

  3. #33
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    It's the best solution available at the moment without altering Level Design. I don't want to have to wait or to rely on Mefisto adding another feature in order to bring balance, and you shouldn't either. He already has enough work to do as it is, I would think.
    True, but still, I'm so-so of boosting his armour.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    No, it wouldn't be quite the same with the Ghost. If I wanted the Ghost to be immune to Lightning absolutely, then I'd give it to him at Level 1 like the Horned Reaper. Instead, I intended it to be a sort of bonus for higher leveled Ghosts.
    Even so, the Ghost would have to cast the spell to be totally immune. With a creature property, he would be immune all the time without counting on the armour spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Somehow, I highly doubt that. The reason for giving them Teleport could be to allow them to move faster by instantly warping to the mining point, or possibly just as a spell to rival the Imp.
    Possibly. This may be a good idea to remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    If your on the same page as I when you want them to remain weak to ranged creatures, then why are you trying to "give them an extra chance"? To be perfectly honest, I think that's a pretty lame excuse to try and add that in. It makes a difference between a total of two ranged units, and one of them is a Hero. So it doesn't really "give them an extra chance" at all, even.

    Barbarian, Dragon, Horned Reaper, Knight, and perhaps a few others would also have to be immune if you want to be consistent with that line of logic.

    To be honest, I don't think it in itself is so much of an issue as is your reasoning behind it, at this point. You've persisted with trying to get me to accept the idea since the beginning. You haven't let go like you have for other ideas either. I just find this to be odd considering that even you seem acknowledge it as being a more insignificant change. I think you have some sort of more personal attachment to the concept and you keep trying to prove it's actually a good idea.

    And you should know that none of this is about pleasing me. Ultimately, this is your patch and you can just do whatever the hell you want with it. No matter what I say, it is you in the end that decides to impliment something.
    You could just have say that I'm lame for thinking like that, it would have be the same feeling I have actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    It's actually a pretty easy solution to come up with. It's not about trying to think of every possible change for something unbalanced. It's about identifying and understanding what the actual problem is. Once you do that, coming up with a proper solution is much easier.
    Not always.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about reducing the Boulder Trap's DAMAGE, not it's Health. Reducing its Health will just make everything messed up in balance. It won't solve the issue either because the Boulder Trap will still instant kill any Non-Horny. The problem is that it's damage is so ridiculously high that it instant kills creatures that were so heavily invested upon.
    Sorry, I misread. I'm feeling even more lame now.
    Reducing the damage won't alter too much things. If the damage is lower and doesn't kill the creature, the boulder will bounce back and keeps hitting the creature, making it to avoid other creatures behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I never said Meteor did that, did I? I was referring to the explosions. Your latter statement just repeats that.
    You're talking as if I'm stupid, don't you? At least, that's what I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Why wouldn't it work? Well it's not that it necessarily wouldn't, but it isn't the best solution out there. If you have two paths, it's faster to go down one of them rather than trying to walk through the thick hedge between them.

    The problem with compromises in general is that it isn't an answer to a problem in balance. It is only meant to make both arguing parties happy by allowing them to have some say. But who cares if a party has any say at all? What is important is the final product. Trying to do a little of both won't make things balanced. It's like choosing between having a tank or a blitzer. Trying to go the middle path will just cause you to end up with neither.

    If anything, giving out a compromise shows a misunderstanding of what is the issue. It also makes it look like you're trying to please me more than you're trying to find the balance.
    Fine then. Since you seem to know everything about balancing, it won't even disturb me to give you all my efforts so that you could play yourself in the values in order that you balance the game yourself. Perhaps you're right, I'm just there for pleasing you, dear mighty king MGR!

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    No, they won't. This is my patch damn it.
    Exactly! Do everything you want! I'm lame after all...
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  4. #34
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Even so, the Ghost would have to cast the spell to be totally immune. With a creature property, he would be immune all the time without counting on the armour spell.
    The Ghost has been set to being a ranged creature, so he's going to cast it immediately once he joins a battle. It's only really an issue if Lightning is used on the enemy Keeper's dungeon, but that in itself is its own problem. At the very least, it is much like the thing with the Tunneller in that it is only done deliberately, meaning people can easily avoid it if they're trying to play a fair game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Not always.
    No but it is usually a much more efficient route, at least for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Reducing the damage won't alter too much things. If the damage is lower and doesn't kill the creature, the boulder will bounce back and keeps hitting the creature, making it to avoid other creatures behind.
    It'll only avoid other creatures if it doesn't kill the creature at some point. The Boulder Trap's damage, at what I have it set to, will kill larger groups of low levels and maybe a couple higher leveled creatures depending on the type. The real thing I did with the Boulder Trap was give it a defined weakness, something you can use to counter, or more accurately put, to defend from it. That being, the Bile Demon. Due to his Health in my patch, he can take more hits than anyone. He also does more damage to the Boulder Trap than anyone, destroying it very quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    You're talking as if I'm stupid, don't you? At least, that's what I feel.
    No, I think you're just being overly sensitive. It looked more like you misread what I stated prior.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Fine then. Since you seem to know everything about balancing, it won't even disturb me to give you all my efforts so that you could play yourself in the values in order that you balance the game yourself. Perhaps you're right, I'm just there for pleasing you, dear mighty king MGR!
    Alright, now you're just getting emotional. Perhaps you should read that over again once you've cleared your head. In fact, you might want to make sure you have a clear head before you read any further.

    As I said before, this isn't about pleasing me. My goal is different from yours anyways, so it's impossible to "please" me while keeping in touch with your own goal. I'm going for balance, so naturally, I would know more about the path of balance. It is my focus. I'm offering you my criticism and my suggestions on what you can do with your patch. Naturally, these suggestions are about balance. But like I said, you're still in charge of your own patch, you choose what suggestions you want to use, which you think are worth putting in the game that will make your patch better while keeping within your goal. Get that through your head and stop complaining whenever you get embarrassed about being wrong. Seriously. I do not like dealing with these sorts of moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Exactly! Do everything you want! I'm lame after all...
    I hope you realize I was referring to the fact that that particular chain of arguments/quotes was about my patch, and you were stating that the Ghost and Vampire will keep Whirlwind when we were talking about my patch. I'm certain you meant that they'll keep it in your patch, but I was making a semi-joke based on that fact.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  5. #35
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Just a sidenote thing regarding lightning:
    Unlike explosions, electric strikes make damage only to creatures. Objects (ie. hearts) are immune to it.
    I recently made a modification to electric strikes which halves the range if enemy is behind something (ie. wall). This makes killing from behind a wall almost impossible (I don't mean SOE casting, this one is unchanged). Originally, lightning wasn't affected by walls in any way - so at full overload, it was easy to kill an imp fortifying on the other side.

  6. #36
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    Just a sidenote thing regarding lightning:
    Unlike explosions, electric strikes make damage only to creatures. Objects (ie. hearts) are immune to it.
    I recently made a modification to electric strikes which halves the range if enemy is behind something (ie. wall). This makes killing from behind a wall almost impossible (I don't mean SOE casting, this one is unchanged). Originally, lightning wasn't affected by walls in any way - so at full overload, it was easy to kill an imp fortifying on the other side.
    Ah, that's very nice.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  7. #37
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    No, I think you're just being overly sensitive. It looked more like you misread what I stated prior.
    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Alright, now you're just getting emotional. Perhaps you should read that over again once you've cleared your head. In fact, you might want to make sure you have a clear head before you read any further.
    Yes, I am very sensitive. I've been a bit pessimistic during the holidays. I'm also often depressed. It's my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    As I said before, this isn't about pleasing me. My goal is different from yours anyways, so it's impossible to "please" me while keeping in touch with your own goal. I'm going for balance, so naturally, I would know more about the path of balance. It is my focus. I'm offering you my criticism and my suggestions on what you can do with your patch. Naturally, these suggestions are about balance. But like I said, you're still in charge of your own patch, you choose what suggestions you want to use, which you think are worth putting in the game that will make your patch better while keeping within your goal. Get that through your head and stop complaining whenever you get embarrassed about being wrong. Seriously. I do not like dealing with these sorts of moments.
    Okay, I'll stop complaining. You provided me with a lot of useful ideas and often convinced me that I what I thought about balancing wasn't always good. And for that, I have to thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I hope you realize I was referring to the fact that that particular chain of arguments/quotes was about my patch, and you were stating that the Ghost and Vampire will keep Whirlwind when we were talking about my patch. I'm certain you meant that they'll keep it in your patch, but I was making a semi-joke based on that fact.
    You have to be careful as I'm a kinda guy that can take jokes seriously. Either put a or a (joke).

    Still, sorry for my behaviour.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  8. #38

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Ehi, Mefisto, it's possible to make the Lightning capable of make damage to other Hearts? (of course I'm not proposing this, it's just to know if it's possible). Moreover, is there a kind of repository of old settings/patches? Maybe someone of us just likes the original thing (but wants to use the new KeeperFX features, to do this can copy the AK settings, I know, but it's an example), or maybe he likes some older version of your patch and wants to play it in the new KeeperFX version, it's possible?

    EDIT: is someone uses his own setting, can carry them on easily on the new version? I never did an upgrade to newer versions, so I don't know how it works...
    Last edited by friscmanseby; January 8th, 2013 at 22:35.

  9. #39
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    Ehi, Mefisto, it's possible to make the Lightning capable of make damage to other Hearts? (of course I'm not proposing this, it's just to know if it's possible).
    Yes.
    Explosions have something called "hit type" which determines what they can hit (that's how there are two versions of gas, for example). The idea of "hit type" could be copied to lightning code.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    is there a kind of repository of old settings/patches?
    The code repository allows to download any version of the source code.
    Regarding releases, older are removed due to legal concerns. Patches - they really are on the server, just the link to them is removed. If you guess the name, you can download them.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    Maybe someone of us just likes the original thing (but wants to use the new KeeperFX features, to do this can copy the AK settings, I know, but it's an example), or maybe he likes some older version of your patch and wants to play it in the new KeeperFX version, it's possible?
    Going back will not always work - I'm trying to make the patches in a way that allows them to upgrade the game, not to downgrade it.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    EDIT: is someone uses his own setting, can carry them on easily on the new version? I never did an upgrade to newer versions, so I don't know how it works...
    That depends. Copying the files might not always work, because I'm adding new commands now and then - and after they're added, they are mandatory.
    But it should be easy to prepare a patch which contains only changed lines and then apply them to the new version.
    You can prepare a patch with "diff" command and then apply it with "patch" (you need linux or binutils for windows to have it).
    Also, even without patches - per-campaign config files don't have to store all options, so they should work by copying over new version - options which are not included in per-campaign configs are taken from the "global" config.

  10. #40
    Beetle Stanislas Dolcini's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    About the old version stuff. I can recompile a particular version with the svn if you ask me.

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