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Thread: Modifications of my upcoming patch

  
  1. #41

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    For Mefisto:
    1) Lightning chapter: this "hit tipe" is hardcoded or is in a .cfg file?
    2) For settings/patches I don't mean the changes you've done to the code, but the changes of things like "old level version" or "the Avatar hasn't Meteor spell anymore"... Is there a repository of this kind of settings?
    3) Of course, I'm not talking of downgrade but just to carry one the changes he done during his playing, so that one's not obliged to change everything again (In fact, when I decided to try Keeper FX, I didn't patch my "historical" copy of the game (the one with changes I did during many years and with level made by me), but I made another install)
    4) So, the old files (obviously cfg because I'm talking of in game settings, not the code ones) should have old command, that in the newer version should work (because you're adding features, not removing them), so what's the problem?
    A little bit off topic: Which version starts the "per campaign" config file? It's a nightly build or a stable release?

    For Dragonslover: I read somewere that someone of you wants to reduce the boulder power, so that it can barely kill the first creature (if it's not too strong and so on). I think that the boulder should be an instant killer instead, a different trap from others. The only one that should be immune is the Avatar and, for the sake of the concept of balance, one of the Evil Creatures (Bile Demon for his size or the Reaper because he's the Creature for excellence like the Avatar is the Hero for excellence).

    Now, let me explain my vision of the balance: you're trying (IMHO) to make everything "flat", trying to reduce the power of all overpowered thing. I think that this logic will bring more to a "brute force game" than to a "strategic game", because all the creatures will be strong more or less the equal. I think instead that the overpowered things should have a weak point to exploit to destroy them (like the example of my proposal regarding boulders), and so every thing should be overpowered against something and weak against something else, so that the game will became a "logic game", I don't know if I managed to explain myself, otherwise I will try to be clearer... Greetings and congratulation to everyone for his contribution

  2. #42
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    For settings/patches I don't mean the changes you've done to the code, but the changes of things like "old level version" or "the Avatar hasn't Meteor spell anymore"... Is there a repository of this kind of settings?
    Since they're in repository, it's easy to track them, ie. here's knight config:
    https://code.google.com/p/keeperfx/s...mat=side&r=492
    You can easily switch between revisions (at top right) to see older changes.

    But they were added to the repo at some point - and before that, changes are not trackable.
    All .CFG files and level scripts (.TXT files) are kept in SVN and you can see the changes like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    So, the old files (obviously cfg because I'm talking of in game settings, not the code ones) should have old command, that in the newer version should work (because you're adding features, not removing them), so what's the problem?
    Try using the latest EXE file and old "terrain.cfg", ie. r577:
    https://code.google.com/p/keeperfx/s...in.cfg&old=577

    The game won't work at all - it won't recognize any of your rooms. Why? Because relation between room and the slab type which build up this room is no longer hard-coded. Without "SlabAssign = ENTRANCE_ZONE" in entrance section, the game will think you have no entrances, because it won't conclude from presence of the slab that you have entrance, so you can attract creatures, and so on.
    Last edited by mefistotelis; January 9th, 2013 at 21:42.

  3. #43
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Okay, so I fixed most of the issues reported above by MGR, but:

    1. The Hellhound will keep the ability to see invisible creatures.
    2. The Priestess will just have Persuade as anger job.
    3. Giant will have 750 of health and 120 of strength.
    4. The Tunneller will keep his teleport spell.

    About the Boulder Trap Damage thing, what should happen to the most resistant/strongest creatures among the , , , and ?
    At level 1, they obviously have to be crushed to death, but when they level up, at which level they can remain "alive"?
    For the , I was thinking he could resist to boulders. At level 5, he could be very badly damaged, while on level 10, he could just lose half of his health points. Boulder shattered in both cases.
    But for the others, should they be killed even at level 10? What would be your point of view about that?
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  4. #44
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    ths would also cause problems with things like Ancient Keeper.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    The Giant cannot remain alive against a Boulder: it's exploited in Dixaroc (level 14 of Deeper Dungeons) at the first part: you have just one Spider, if Giants stay alive you're doomed. As I said before, I think the boulder should be a istant death trap, except the Avatar (no damage) and one of evil creatures (no damage, so the Keeper can counter it properly)...

    Dragonslover, to be damaged to half of hit points, you should raise so much the health of the bile demon imho. Can't you put IMMUNE_TO_BOULDER to it?

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    The Giant cannot remain alive against a Boulder: it's exploited in Dixaroc (level 14 of Deeper Dungeons) at the first part: you have just one Spider, if Giants stay alive you're doomed. As I said before, I think the boulder should be a istant death trap, except the Avatar (no damage) and one of evil creatures (no damage, so the Keeper can counter it properly)...

    Dragonslover, to be damaged to half of hit points, you should raise so much the health of the bile demon imho. Can't you put IMMUNE_TO_BOULDER to it?
    How about The ? They are implied to be extremely intelligent, and for all we know they might know the same spell that the uses to destroy boulders?

  7. #47

    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    How about The ? They are implied to be extremely intelligent, and for all we know they might know the same spell that the uses to destroy boulders?
    Yes, moreover is bigger than the Bile Demon (4 lair size). I like it...

  8. #48
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    1. The Hellhound will keep the ability to see invisible creatures.
    2. The Priestess will just have Persuade as anger job.
    3. Giant will have 750 of health and 120 of strength.
    4. The Tunneller will keep his teleport spell.
    I only really have a problem with the last one due to the issues with the AI but I suppose that can be avoided by simply not using a Level 10 Tunneller.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    About the Boulder Trap Damage thing, what should happen to the most resistant/strongest creatures among the , , , and ?
    At level 1, they obviously have to be crushed to death, but when they level up, at which level they can remain "alive"?
    For the , I was thinking he could resist to boulders. At level 5, he could be very badly damaged, while on level 10, he could just lose half of his health points. Boulder shattered in both cases.
    But for the others, should they be killed even at level 10? What would be your point of view about that?
    I think that may be a more difficult way to measure it. In my patch, I used the Boulder Trap to measure out a new string of strengths and weaknesses for the different tank units. The Bile Demon is easily the best to counter Boulders while the Dragon works as a nice alternative. The Beetle, on the other hand, well he gets crushed as easily as just about anything else. The differences between the Bile Demon and Dragon in my patch compared to before and any other creature is that they can survive against Boulders and live to tell the tale. The Bile Demon more so than the Dragon, being capable of doing it at Level 1. (Though you should note that it's very different in my patch, because the Bile Demon not only deals the most damage to the Boulder (60) but he also has MUCH more Health than before (2500))

    The Horned Reaper and Knight are special creatures, and I made them destroy Boulders instantly. However, I actually made it so they deal max damage to Boulders rather than giving them the immunity special trait. Two reasons. A) I'm not using the latest version of FX (mostly applies to Knight) and B) I don't want them to be entirely immune to Boulders. I think if face to face with enough Boulders, it'll still eventually kill them. (mostly applies to Horned Reaper).

    I didn't include the Giant in this as he's not a tank. Also, notably, the Fly deals no damage to the Boulder and Skeletons only deal 10 damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    ths would also cause problems with things like Ancient Keeper.
    Just about any patch would cause problems with Ancient Keeper. That's why KeeperFX has the ability to apply different creature data for different campaigns. Ancient Keeper, and probably a few others, should use the original data.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    The Giant cannot remain alive against a Boulder: it's exploited in Dixaroc (level 14 of Deeper Dungeons) at the first part: you have just one Spider, if Giants stay alive you're doomed.
    That's a... pretty inflexible way of thinking. DL can just remove the Giants if it becomes a problem since his patch includes modifications of the campaign as well. They were just there as a joke, anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    As I said before, I think the boulder should be a istant death trap, except the Avatar (no damage) and one of evil creatures (no damage, so the Keeper can counter it properly)...
    Considering how easy it is to mass produce them, I don't think there should be only one creature to mass produce them. As they're so powerful and capable of instantly destroying (over) half your army per boulder, it will become practically a requirement to have that one creature just to have a defense against Boulders. And no individual creature should be that necessary.

    I also think people are underestimating my own Boulder Trap just because it doesn't have the term "Instant Kill" before it. It steal deals a lot of potential damage. 6000, in fact, which is enough for it to still be considered instant death in a sense. The main difference is that it cannot kill as much as before, but the fact remains in that it still kills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    How about The ? They are implied to be extremely intelligent, and for all we know they might know the same spell that the uses to destroy boulders?
    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    Yes, moreover is bigger than the Bile Demon (4 lair size). I like it...
    For proper balancing, it's best to measure up the strengths and weaknesses of the units you're considering to use as an Anti-Boulder Trap. If you want to have the Boulder Trap remain as is with its damage, then immunity to Boulder Traps is a massive strength. Situational, perhaps, but still a very high strong point considering how useful it is when it is needed.

    Also, Dragons are not bigger than Bile Demons. They are taller. Lair space could logically mean that when the Dragon is laying down, he takes up more space. But either way, going systematically by Lair size is not the best solution.
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  9. #49
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    ths would also cause problems with things like Ancient Keeper.
    Nope, because like MGR said above, Ancient Keeper will use and keep the original configuration of Dungeon Keeper in order for the exploits to remain possible. For example, in my previous patch, the Giant was immune to wind, that caused a problem for a bonus level where you had to push them using a ghost. But it's not happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    The Giant cannot remain alive against a Boulder: it's exploited in Dixaroc (level 14 of Deeper Dungeons) at the first part: you have just one Spider, if Giants stay alive you're doomed. As I said before, I think the boulder should be a istant death trap, except the Avatar (no damage) and one of evil creatures (no damage, so the Keeper can counter it properly)...

    Dragonslover, to be damaged to half of hit points, you should raise so much the health of the bile demon imho. Can't you put IMMUNE_TO_BOULDER to it?
    True, frisc. And it's the same thing for Belial as well where Giants can be randomly killed or not, and therefore, I cannot really modify the kind of creatures to use. It was meant somewhere for the boulders to be able to crush and kill a big amount of giants. I will have to check this more carefully. I really think I'm gonna lower the damage he does to boulders.
    As for the Bile demon thing, no. I don't wanna make him immune to boulders. And I didn't raised his health. Instead, I raised his damage done to boulders. Higher is the value, more resistant to the boulder the creature is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    How about The ? They are implied to be extremely intelligent, and for all we know they might know the same spell that the uses to destroy boulders?
    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    Yes, moreover is bigger than the Bile Demon (4 lair size). I like it...
    MGR explained it all already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I only really have a problem with the last one due to the issues with the AI but I suppose that can be avoided by simply not using a Level 10 Tunneller.
    Well, level 10 tunnellers are very rare. I'd like to keep in cases where they can be used alone instead of having a party. It would be the choice to the level designer to make the decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I think that may be a more difficult way to measure it. In my patch, I used the Boulder Trap to measure out a new string of strengths and weaknesses for the different tank units. The Bile Demon is easily the best to counter Boulders while the Dragon works as a nice alternative. The Beetle, on the other hand, well he gets crushed as easily as just about anything else. The differences between the Bile Demon and Dragon in my patch compared to before and any other creature is that they can survive against Boulders and live to tell the tale. The Bile Demon more so than the Dragon, being capable of doing it at Level 1. (Though you should note that it's very different in my patch, because the Bile Demon not only deals the most damage to the Boulder (60) but he also has MUCH more Health than before (2500))

    The Horned Reaper and Knight are special creatures, and I made them destroy Boulders instantly. However, I actually made it so they deal max damage to Boulders rather than giving them the immunity special trait. Two reasons. A) I'm not using the latest version of FX (mostly applies to Knight) and B) I don't want them to be entirely immune to Boulders. I think if face to face with enough Boulders, it'll still eventually kill them. (mostly applies to Horned Reaper).

    I didn't include the Giant in this as he's not a tank. Also, notably, the Fly deals no damage to the Boulder and Skeletons only deal 10 damage.
    Interesting. I'm going to check this out more deeply.

    Oh, and finally, MGR, could you please remove your reminder in your signature? I really feel bad enough for having said that to you and I told you I'm sorry.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  10. #50
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    Default Re: Modifications of my upcoming patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    For proper balancing, it's best to measure up the strengths and weaknesses of the units you're considering to use as an Anti-Boulder Trap. If you want to have the Boulder Trap remain as is with its damage, then immunity to Boulder Traps is a massive strength. Situational, perhaps, but still a very high strong point considering how useful it is when it is needed.
    If you are concerned with balancing, then perhaps double the payday? I mean, the is a mediocre unit, but has a high payday by daint of its ability to resurrect itself up to 7 times at level 10.

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