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Thread: Heroes v.s. Creatures

  
  1. #11
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Yea I can understand you might be getting annoyed with "I thought" and "I remember" and seemingly ignoring your points. I'm just working from experience and unfortunately it has been a very long time and my memory is muddy. Sometimes you point something out and that clears my previously incorrect idea.
    The other thing was that I was becoming rather tired at the time of the posting and that caused me to become less tolerant of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    And Salamanders on lava maps are surprisingly good with tactics. No I don't just rush into the enemy dungeon. It's tactics that allowed me to win, but only Salamanders allow the use of these tactics because doing this with BK's and a bridge is just ASKING to get your bridge claimed. The salamanders ranged attack is a big part of that. Yea the enemy can just build a stone bridge, I'll just go somewhere else if he has sufficient BK's to kill my Salamanders. Salamanders are fast, and on the limited land map it's hard to drop your BK's in a good spot without being vulnerable to getting hit for extra damage while stunned. Is a BK rush with insane pit micro just as good or maybe better for the lazy player? Yea, but the Salamanders are something people don't expect, and certainly not in the numbers at the level I can quickly get them at. They're completely baffled and unprepared and they screw up enough to give me the win.
    That is enemy incompetence. A better strategy to deal with such hit and run tactics would be to go on the offensive, as you can't run from defending your own base. And that is where you will lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    I did mention and admit that fear was a big problem for Salamanders. I had the exact same problem testing. My solution was drop 1 salamander close and the other further away. I only tested vs Knights. Maybe that painted a much rosier picture of 1v1 then was actually so since BK's are way better. Although if your saying that it takes 2 frigging Salamanders at level 10 to kill 1 BK then...I'm obviously not remembering correct. If I could find my disk I could install and boot up a pet dungeon and see for myself.
    That strategy you mention is worse, actually. It means the farther away Salamander will simply refer to ranged attacks, which as explained suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    I'm totally baffled that it's nothing like I remembered.
    Essentially the case for all arguments, and the main thing bothering me.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    With Wizards it just didn't feel that way when I used them. At a certain point I was afraid the AOE of the Wizards might've been hitting my own guys. By the way, in a narrow hall the AOE probably wouldn't take effect. The guys need to be right next to each other.
    That was the whole point of putting ~20 creatures in a single tile hall way. They were all cramped together to the point that they were having collision problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Either way, they were doing alot of damage for a support unit, more then I expected. Although you said Elven Archers get grenade at level 8...I remember trying them and they did surprisingly worse then wizards. I did not remember if they had grenade. Just that they sucked.
    It's ironic that you say that because the Warlocks have the same spell for the same damage. It takes them to Level 8 as well to obtain.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    The BK temple thing is abuse.
    So is a lot of other tactics you're mentioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    If we're abusing Temples, I remember that even Knights did not count towards portal limit (Although I could be wrong...).
    Converted Heroes don't count against the Portal Limit. This may apply to converted creatures as well but I'm not certain. Either way, it is another reason why the TC is overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    AFAIK you need a HUGE graveyard to let massing Vampires resurrect
    3x3. 9 Tiles. 18000 Gold.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    I've also had 1v1 fights between Vampires and BK's, the BK's just ripped them apart at equal levels. It wasn't a huge difference but Vamps just don't attack very fast, they're no Bile Demons or Giants, but it's still too slow to beat the BK. They are the only one with a very good offensive spell for pure damage (although the slow is GRRRR. Such a horrible spell), so you could consider them overal more valuable then BK's, but once in Melee they will lose to the BK.
    1vs1 fights only determine so much. Yeah the BK wins on an equal level but what about when the Vampire resurrects? Fact is that Vampires are to be gained in higher number, being as they ignore Portal Limits. Meaning you won't be facing them in equal numbers, they will surpass. And then resurrect.

    Fun fact about Slow, it's also bugged. You can cancel out its effects under various conditions, such as stopping to initiate melee or getting stunned.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Monks at level 1 purely for healing? It doesn't work. I've tried it. Unlike in clean 1v1 duelling, fights online are a complete melee with the first guy dying often being the one ganked by 2-3 enemies. Monks cannot heal him in time, even their minor delay wouldn't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    I'm totally baffled that it's nothing like I remembered.
    Are you sure it's not a case of that? Either way, I actually tried it and with a Level 4 Monk so that they they have to deal with Speed getting in the way. They still had no problem healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Converting is balanced.
    Within a matter of a few minutes, you're instantly gaining a Level 4-8 unit that would usually take you 10-20 minutes to obtain normally, and it only costs 5000-20000 Mana, which is a very easily renewed resource. Additionally, the converted creature surpasses your Portal Limit and gives you a better advantage over the enemy as it is now 16+ Units versus 15 at the most.

    No, the Torture Chamber is not balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    It's to promote offensive tactics rather then huddle in the dungeon and wipe everyone out when your powerful enough. It's the reason you can't train above level 8 and why level 9 and 10 make such a huge difference.
    You need the defeated enemy to be on your land in order to imprison and capture them. In other words, it's better to be defensive to convert. What's more is that on the defense, aside from having a higher chance to convert as you don't have to worry about rushing to claim enemy land, you have access to all Traps/Spells to help out in battle. You can't get converts until a battle occurs, meaning there's no need to rush to the offensive. If anything, waiting makes things better as the stronger the enemy, the more overpowered the TC becomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Yea you can get over the portal limit, I'm not sure how it works in DK2 But I imagine that even if you convert the enemy creatures, gain his portal and then still attract the number of creatures for 2 portals + all the conversions not counting towards portal limit then it still isn't broken because you don't gain double creatures from 2 portals and the new creatures start at level 1. This is great when you rush, but in a later battle it makes very little difference.
    What? That doesn't even support your "Torture Chamber is not overpowered" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    And the whole reason I compare Guards to Royal Guards is because that's valid. I do remember someone else telling me that I only need a torture chamber, that makes RG's even better. I've always built the Training Room with them, I haven't actually tested it without. Many people asked me "Why a training room?" but they used Knights and wouldn't understand. Once I got an answer from a (by the way very good player) that said I didn't need the training room. The whole thing is, Guards are bad because they are outclassed. They need a crap room, and even if that room is needed for RG's you don't want the Guards because they have no value over the RG.
    I actually made an error here, you do need the Training Room to get the RG, 25 tiles. Still, you can build them along the wall or something and you won't get a problem with Guards.

    Anyways, you're missing why I say it is invalid, because the argument in question is a comparison between the Goblin and the Guard. Goblins are just as outclassed (actually even more outclassed) as Guards, so that argument also works against the Goblin. The fact that Goblins are simply attracted by the Lair makes it worse as they will always come, making them get in the way of a BK. In the Guard case, there are certain easy measures you can take to get around that.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    The Fairy isn't viable. Too expensive to get, and even then a bad fighter. Mistresses are better fighters and need an easy and cheap room. They are overal worse then BK's, but they have a use while Fairy's are just useless.
    Same argument as the Guard VS Goblin. Same counter. And additionally, you're very wrong there to consider the DM to have use while the Fairy is useless.

    DMs are outclassed in melee combat as are Fairies, this we can both agree on, yes? What the DM is useful for is her Lightning, its stun effect. But the Fairy has Lightning at the same level. What's more, it is better than the DM's. It deals double damage and has about half recharge time. It is better in every way.

    And no need to bring the Temple here, we've gone over that over and over again. It doesn't effect her raw ability in battle, more so her overall usefulness but the DM is overall outclassed as you admit, making the argument pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Mistresses dropped after BK's can stun some enemies, causing them to die instantly in the melee due to stun
    You even consider it to be the DM's use when the Fairy does that even better. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Goblins have a use. No required room means you get them EARLIER. I'm not saying "Don't build a pit and get goblins!" Or "Throw out those crappy BK's, they do nothing!". The goblin's power lies in the fact that before the pit is up, you already attract some of them. Build the pit, get kaleb, throw them in and let them level while waiting for more goblins/BK's. You are going to outnumber the enemy. Your goblins are strong early on because they gain fast exp, they're no BK's but your advantage is in numbers because your enemy WILL throw out his goblins and certainly not train them due to portal supply slowing.
    What are you talking about? I wasn't lying when I said your 10 Goblins to 4 BKs was exaggerating, nor when I said that 10 Goblins to 6 BKs was pushing things. The Combat Pit costs 750 Gold. That's 6750 Gold for a 3x3 Pit, which is what you need to start attracting 2 of them. 12000 for a 4x4, which will get you 5. It costs 300 to build a Lair, which is 2700 for a 3x3 Lair and that's enough to keep creatures coming for a while. It's not a complete room, but the point is to begin attraction sooner and you can just mine for more Gold to finish the rooms as you're waiting for BKs to come.

    Therefore, realistically speaking, against a true BK spam tactic, you're only going to get 2 Goblins in at the most before they start bringing in BKs. As far as training goes, if they begin training at about the same time, the BKs will be almost Level 3 by the time the Goblins are Level 4, you forgot to take in consideration the increase of needed EXP to level. They're about 750 EXP away from hitting Level 3. And if you focus more on getting Goblins rather than true BK spamming, then realistically speaking the BK Player will have the advantage of the Combat Pit before the Goblin Player and thus train faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Okay so my situation just happens to show the goblins have tiny bit of a threat shortage.
    "Tiny"? That is extreme exaggeration. The Goblin quantity is 2.5x the Black Knight's and their levels are double the Black Knight's and they still need a 25% higher fear value to not run away. Not to mention, once the first Goblin goes down (which will likely be before the first BK) then the rest will get scared as even with a 25% higher fear threshold, they're barely able to keep their courage in one piece.

    Just face is, the Goblin's crappy Fear stat makes him a worthless unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    With Kaleb and a few BK's Im sure that would push it higher, whereas the enemy can't get higher numbers due to having Warlocks and not being even close to his portal limit. It makes the threat less of a problem.
    Wait, what? Why does the Black Knight player have to have Warlocks? (I'm assuming that's what you're saying, it all sounds like a really confusing statement but either way, it still makes no sense)

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    And on traps: Maybe that's why nobody used them?
    I used them in my last DKII match, and so did my opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Giant's are not strong at all, you might think different due to...well...them being Giants. They're just weaklings especially when compared to the RG. There goes all the traps. It's a very hard choice to make between traps and fighters. In general fighters are better. Traps are only good on defense with the exception of the Jack in the Box and perhaps trap spamming near the enemy heart (you aint getting close with less or weaker fighters, though). JitB is just easy to not...yknow...fall for. Might be good to prevent claiming imps. Too bad they can be attacked by fighters...
    Traps offer support for your fighters, you don't have your traps go 1-on-1 with enemy creatures.

    Sentries deal 250 damage every 6 seconds. 2 of them and you're doing better than the Wizard. Plus they have range. The Lightning Trap deals 4000 damage in 12 seconds, that outright outclasses the Dark Mistress' Lightning. Then there's the Freeze Trap which keeps a creature frozen for 20 seconds. There's Barricades to help defend your Traps. Plus Traps don't count against your Portal Limit last time I checked, so now you have your more powerful support AND main fighting force. Sure you sacrifice 2 Royal Guards for Giants, but 6 Sentries is better than 3 Wizards, and 3 Wizards would cost you 3 Royal Guards. So yeah, Giants and Traps are good.

    You don't need 5 Giants to make traps, only 2 at the most due to their ridiculous manufacturing rates. And that doesn't reduce your fighting abilities in the slightest, especially with Traps to more than make up for it. Also, Traps are useful for defending strategic areas. In my last DKII match, we played The Deep End and were placing Traps on the Portals as battles would surely break out there. And they did, the traps most certainly made a difference.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; September 15th, 2012 at 00:45.
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  2. #12

    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Warlocks is for research, getting BK's takes longer then Goblins. Don't goblins need...nothing?

    I remember (there I go again) that I was digging around on MPD while having a portal claimed and goblins kept pouring in. Normally you have to build a Combat Pit, but even if you build a Pit, your still going to get Goblins.

    With Goblins along with BK's while rushing you would be so fast that your main focus isn't research until you beat the first enemy. Throwing out gobbo's for BK's would make you max your portal too slowly and thus not make it a rush but a normal game as everyone that spams BK's will.

    Unless you use a completely different strategy (the meta wasn't very advanced as it was right after Maiden was released) you're going to need Warlocks to research Heal, preferably upgraded. Tremor is also a neccessity as people tend to be walled in by the time you max out in BK's.

  3. #13
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Warlocks is for research
    Warlocks are gained on both sides then so it doesn't really matter and isn't worth bringing up.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    getting BK's takes longer then Goblins. Don't goblins need...nothing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I wasn't lying when I said your 10 Goblins to 4 BKs was exaggerating, nor when I said that 10 Goblins to 6 BKs was pushing things. The Combat Pit costs 750 Gold. That's 6750 Gold for a 3x3 Pit, which is what you need to start attracting 2 of them. 12000 for a 4x4, which will get you 5. It costs 300 to build a Lair, which is 2700 for a 3x3 Lair and that's enough to keep creatures coming for a while. It's not a complete room, but the point is to begin attraction sooner and you can just mine for more Gold to finish the rooms as you're waiting for BKs to come.

    Therefore, realistically speaking, against a true BK spam tactic, you're only going to get 2 Goblins in at the most before they start bringing in BKs.
    And you need a Lair to bring in more than 1 creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    I remember (there I go again) that I was digging around on MPD while having a portal claimed and goblins kept pouring in. Normally you have to build a Combat Pit, but even if you build a Pit, your still going to get Goblins.
    Yes I know, and that is what I've been trying to tell you in the Goblin VS Guard argument, that Goblins are just as bad if not worse that Guards as they are even more outclassed and simply get in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    With Goblins along with BK's while rushing you would be so fast that your main focus isn't research until you beat the first enemy. Throwing out gobbo's for BK's would make you max your portal too slowly and thus not make it a rush but a normal game as everyone that spams BK's will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Goblin quantity is 2.5x the Black Knight's and their levels are double the Black Knight's and they still need a 25% higher fear value to not run away. Not to mention, once the first Goblin goes down (which will likely be before the first BK) then the rest will get scared as even with a 25% higher fear threshold, they're barely able to keep their courage in one piece.
    In other words, even with half as many BKs as Goblins, BKs are still much greater. Not to mention, the more creatures you have the slower it will take for the next. And when you sack a creature, it does appear to increase the speed of the next arriving creature. Not much of a drawback.

    * * * * *

    I'm assuming by your lack of a response, you're giving up/withdrawing your other arguments?
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  4. #14

    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Not really, but I can't keep making walls of text. And how am I supposed to retort when you say "Monks heal just fine, even at level 4"? It's yes vs no, it's pointless to continue here. It's not an admission of being incorrect, but if you can use monks just fine and beat other players without getting steamrolled due to being outnumbered then how can I argue against that?

    The Vampire resurrection thing...I remember having a 5x5 graveyard and my vamps didnt resurrect. That narrator kept saying my graveyard was too small or something. Once a bunch of the vamps died they started to resurrect. But it's pointless, again. Temple abuse is not allowed, TC is allowed. It's cheating because it's too simple a mechanic to make a huge army. TC requires you to kill an enemy and drag it all the way to your prison. It might be a very powerful room, but it isn't overpowered because an opponent can defend against it by not having his creatures die in the first place. Temple abuse has no defense other than doing the exact same thing. If you want vamps the only valid way to do so is to slap goblins to death.

    And for the rush: Warlocks are not gained. That's why it's a rush. I don't even build a library, I rush the enemy and get his library. So my edge is he has a bunch of warlocks at level 1, maybe a few DK's at level 2-3 while I have maxed out creatures without warlocks.
    Again, guards do NOT enter without any room being built. Rushing is not viable in mercenary games. Rushing is viable in some maps and goblins are attracted by nothing, once you have a combat pit and a lair they will start running in. Everything you need to attract multiple goblins is what you need to attract multiple DK's. Throwing out the gobbo's is worse because you will be missing those as fighters, this is their use. Early game fighters. It's only pure logic: You keep gobbos and level them, the opponent only lets Warlocks and BK's join. It's pretty obvious who is going to win the battle in the early game, the person that keeps the gobbo's and levels them. Suppose you want to rush in mercenary games, then the Guard rush would be horribly bad compared to a Knight Rush. I'm not sure if Mercenary portals have any "useless" creatures entering with only a Pit/Lair/Hatchery, but even if they do then those "useless" creatures warrant use over the guard because hes worse then the Knight (If you show through stats that this isn't true, THEN the guard would be useful as opposed to useless) and therefore building a useless training room is simply never warranted.

    Traps: A Wizard can be dropped near your heart if the enemy digs around your traps. You can't always choose to fight near traps. People aren't stupid. In certain maps, yes, traps are essential to defend key locations.
    I also think the trap damage is incorrect. I think you meant 400 dmg for the lightning trap. I remember doing a calculation back then and the sentry DPS was better then the lightning DPS. Again, it usually depends on the map. Salamanders are only useable with lava maps, gobbo's are only usable in small maps with a portal very closeby, preferably low gold aswell and traps require maps with key locations where controlling them gives you an advantage.

    Fairy's are crap, do you even want to compare the combat ability of a frigging fairy to the DM? Do you even want to compare the cost of a DM (by the way entirely essential and very very cheap considering you only need a strip around a prison which ALSO gains you an elite PLUS the ability to convert). You get 2 for a 5x5 temple, they're too expensive. Zach on most frosties is too expensive, but suppose you do get him then you can get 1-2 fairy's with that and that's it. A DA is 10x better then a fairy and people don't build 5x5 temples to attract those because it's too expensive.

    And by convert you thought I meant turncoat somewhere, isn't turncoat a 1 creature only thing? It's essential to use, but hardly overpowering since it's equal. Both keepers have access to it. You might consider it lame, but then again so are DK's.
    Last edited by HerselfTheElf; September 15th, 2012 at 21:07.

  5. #15
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    I would say it isn't about whether any one player can win with them - for any creature - because ultimately every adversary will vary in skill, in luck, in intuition and in strategy. Winning with something is is a wholy unreliable way to judge its worth as there are far to many extraneous variables influencing the outcome. Far to many.

    The only way to judge a creature is to look at their individual merits and see how that influences friends and allies.

    Also, adding subjective pronouncements like 'this is allowed' and 'this isn't allowed' and what is valid and what is not. Who made you god? Bullfrog included it when they made the game. It may not have been wise, and it may not have been balanced but they included both. Only they can say what is allowed and what is valid and they aren't around anymore, god bless their festering corpse.

    That is all.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    That comment about "Who made you god?" just shows you know nothing about DK2 MP meta. It was agreed upon by pretty much every decent player that it was gamebreaking and pointless to use because every game would revolve around the temple.

  7. #17
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Different people play by different rules. Is every decent player here? No? What is a 'decent' player may I ask? You're definition of decent player seems quite self-serving by context - 'everyone who agrees with the ruleset I enforce is a decent player.' Nice.

    DK2 has been out for a good 13 years and the only way to get a game going for most of that is to arrange it. Strictly that means small reference pools. That comment is plainly flawed. You don't have a clue - you can't have a clue - how most people play, or have played, and by what rules over the nigh decade-and-a-half since the game was released. That is common sense.

    You assume everyone plays like you. That is not something that can be assumed. It is just labelling any tactic that you don't like as 'invalid.'

    Furthermore, as soon as you start enforcing outside rules on a game you can't make statements about how effective units are. You don't like vampires or their mechanics, and so you don't use them and think they suck and are useless - worthless even - when quite clearly they are the most powerful creature in game. Suddenly it's 'abuse', but it doesn't change the facts that it isn't useless and is in fact very powerful. The base game is what matters here - with all the mechanics and exploits it came with. Arguably meta rules in whatever multiplayer circles you have played in are totally irrelevant.

    I'm not a very competative player myself which is a fact I'm glad of; between broken multiplayer and flawed balancing across the board in everything from unit stun to traps it is impossible to ever have a truly competative and balanced game even if you do try to enforce meta rules. I go up against others for a relaxed game every now and then, but anything more is pointless.
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Don't "like" Vampires? I love Vampires, they just suck in DK2. You can't beat a decent player by using vamps over BK's. And notice how I said "pretty much". That's not everyone, although it was very rare to see someone disagree. In fact, it was never mentioned in the games I played. It was very common knowledge that the temple was broken and people played accordingly. It was very rare to see someone with millions of dwarves and lets just say nobody was too happy about that. People didn't just say "remember guys no temple abuse" before every game, it was that common.

    I don't like elites, I don't like BK spam. Yet I can't say those are "invalid" because everyone plays like that, and trying to make everyone change the way they play is futile.

    And Vampires are not very powerful because there are better sacrifices instead. The fact that you need to abuse a broken mechanic to make them usable just says enough about how bad they are. Building a pit and spamming BK's is just twice as fast and by the time you beat the portal limit by slapping gobbo's the enemy is already digging out your dungeon.

    And how does a "relaxed" game justify abusing game mechanics? If you are so mellow in your MP approach, the last you would want is a tactic being available that makes it impossible for you to win unless you use the exact same tactic. The last thing I would want to do in a relaxing game is manage 50 Vampires.

  9. #19
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heroes v.s. Creatures

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    Don't "like" Vampires? I love Vampires, they just suck in DK2. You can't beat a decent player by using vamps over BK's. And notice how I said "pretty much". That's not everyone, although it was very rare to see someone disagree. In fact, it was never mentioned in the games I played. It was very common knowledge that the temple was broken and people played accordingly. It was very rare to see someone with millions of dwarves and lets just say nobody was too happy about that. People didn't just say "remember guys no temple abuse" before every game, it was that common.

    I don't like elites, I don't like BK spam. Yet I can't say those are "invalid" because everyone plays like that, and trying to make everyone change the way they play is futile.
    Again with this "everyone", "people", "common knowledge", "nobody", etc.

    You clearly missed the point of MeinCookie's post. You have no idea about what all of the DK community thinks or does. You only have your limited reference pool, consisting of yourself and your buddies who you played with. As Cookie said, you can't have a clue about how most people play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by HerselfTheElf View Post
    And how does a "relaxed" game justify abusing game mechanics? If you are so mellow in your MP approach, the last you would want is a tactic being available that makes it impossible for you to win unless you use the exact same tactic. The last thing I would want to do in a relaxing game is manage 50 Vampires.
    Again, spectacularly missing the point. When you don't play competitively, but rather play it relaxed and mellow, you don't necessarily care about tactics that make it impossible for one to win. A relaxing game doesn't necessitate requiring to manage 50 vampires. Quite the opposite, actually.

    Relaxed players don't apply the competitive mindset to do what they win using any tools and exploits possible. That's simply competitive play without meta-rules. Those are very different things.

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