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Thread: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    What changes the "COMPUTER_PLAYER(PLAYER_GOOD,0)" string brings? (I noticed that there is such thing in a lot of levels in this campaign?
    And by the way, why I can be every Keeper with the "-human x" parameter but it doesn't work for "-human good"? Uhm, just tried with "human 4": if you do this, you're spawned in the Hero Heart but you can't see nothing but the Panel on the left: if you see the Rooms and Spells you will have the same as Player0, and even the start gold, and then someone will try to spawn Imps (the gold will decrease and you will hear the sound of a spawned Imp, but in the Creature Panel you will see the Heroes that are on the map at starting but no imps even if they were "spawned"...
    Now, I know that uploading the new version of the map is not needed for now, but why the Forum doesn't allow anymore to upload things?

  2. #12

    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    Hi everyone, today I've got a technical problem: the level Sin-King of Quest for the Hero is incredibly slow on my machine. There's my hardware:

    Maybe can be the high presence of Bugs (I mean the creature), because every time that I see a bug (the creature) my game slows incredibly, and this isn't a KeeperFX problem, but also a standard DK problem... Any suggestion?
    This might be a general problem: I often noticed my game lagging like hell whenever bugs or hellhounds were in view due to their walking sound being bugged, or something. I am not sure what caused it and how it worked and why it caused so much lag, but I have experienced that myself. But if that's the case you should have it on other maps as well.

    EDIT: I forgot to say that I play the KeeperFX 0.40 version...
    I don't know if newer versions of KeeperFX support custom creature.txt files yet, but if it doesn't, you shouldn't be playing this campaign in KeeperFX because it's quite simply bugged and doesn't play the way it was meant to be played.

    UPDATE: Progressing through the level, the game regained his usual speed, so I can think that there were too many creatures, but this cannot be because even reaching the 255 creatures limit this never happened before, so maybe there were too many Bugs or maybe the Knight with the boosted statistics...
    Glad to hear it got resolved by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    EDIT: I made some tests and even if the Heroes near the Heart (3 level 6 Knights and 6 level 9 Archers, do you confirm?) are the cause, closing the doors will not work. So, since they luckily reside inside an Action Point, I removed them from the map and added them via action point... If you confirm that were indeed 3 level 6 Knigts and 6 level 9 Archers, then I'll upload the correct version of the map...
    I would REALLY appreciate it if you didn't try to modify other people's works and distribute it..... Especially when it's supposed to "fix" things that weren't broken when I thoroughly tested my maps.

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    I took a look at the level and started removing everything from it until only 2 hearts remained. Then I started modifying the script, and I noticed.. PLAYER_GOOD is set up as COMPUTER_PLAYER!

    This is what really caused the problem - a part of memory is used differently for keepers and for heroes. When the good player was set up as keeper, this memory began to be overwritten by two different modules.

    Finally, solved!
    This never caused a problem for me as far as I can remember: does this issue occur in vanilla DK? If not, the issue could be with KeeperFX and the map's incompatibility with KeeperFX.

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    What changes the "COMPUTER_PLAYER(PLAYER_GOOD,0)" string brings? (I noticed that there is such thing in a lot of levels in this campaign?)
    In general it is mainly to allow for PlayerGood to cast spells such as Protection and Lighting.

    Which does beg the question why I added that to this map considering the script doesn't give playergood any actual spells to use. It's been ages ago since I've made these maps, so I don't remember the intention behind it. It could be it had some other effects as well that I forgot about.

    Now, I know that uploading the new version of the map is not needed for now, but why the Forum doesn't allow anymore to upload things?
    Don't know, but glad it doesn't. Don't modify other people's works and distribute it. I always test my work to make sure it all functions and works as it is intended to - and it did in vanilla DK. So if it doesn't for you, I would argue it's because of KeeperFX.

  3. #13
    Spider
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    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    This raises an interesting point. You don't want anyone to modify your campaign? Yet it's clear that the problem in the level is due to your inclusion of an invalid script instruction. You seem keen to describe this as a KeeperFX problem, yet isn't KeeperFX realistically the 'only show in town' if someone wants to play DK1? I am curious to know what you think should happen next. Do you agree that your computer player instruction should be removed?

    It is my opinion that levels should be modified where necessary to maintain their original intent, given that KFX has necessarily changed some things compared to DK1.

    Dayo

  4. #14
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by DzjeeAr View Post
    I don't know if newer versions of KeeperFX support custom creature.txt files yet, but if it doesn't, you shouldn't be playing this campaign in KeeperFX because it's quite simply bugged and doesn't play the way it was meant to be played.
    KeeperFX 0.42 does support custom per-campaign config files, but not exactly creature.txt - instead, there are numerous .cfg files with global config and creature configs.
    For now, noone has created any customized global config - only creature config is really customized.

    If anyone would like to create a config for this campaign, I'd gladly accept it.


    Quote Originally Posted by DzjeeAr View Post
    This never caused a problem for me as far as I can remember: does this issue occur in vanilla DK? If not, the issue could be with KeeperFX and the map's incompatibility with KeeperFX.
    This could be called map incompatibility, but the problem is far deeper.
    In sophisticated programs, bugs are often covered by other bugs. This makes fixing a bug quite hard, because the fix seem to destroy a lot of other functionalities.
    This is what happend in DK - using that option worked on vanilla DK, because pathfinding code had errors which were covering up the existing problems.
    Also, there was no memory access control, so modules were able to write to a part of memory which they shouldn't have access to.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    This raises an interesting point. You don't want anyone to modify your campaign?
    In general I have no issue with people modifying an author's work for their own enjoyment. I DO have an issue with people modifying an author's work and distributing it. IF they do they should at least add a sidenote that the campaign is modified and not as it was conceived.

    Yet it's clear that the problem in the level is due to your inclusion of an invalid script instruction.
    It is not an invalid script instruction. I don't (normally) add junk to my scripts. When I designed these campaigns I designed them with the original DK Editor, in vanilla DK. And in vanilla DK, they all functioned perfectly fine. You can't expect them to work fine when:
    given that KFX has necessarily changed some things compared to DK1.
    You seem keen to describe this as a KeeperFX problem,
    Because again, I designed these maps in vanilla DK and in vanilla DK they all functioned fine. So if KeeperFX comes along and changes things in Dungeon Keeper, and as a result my maps no longer function as they should, then yes, I will say the cause is keeperFX. I am not saying Mefistotelis did so intentionally, I'm just not too keen on the idea of this situation giving the impression I fail at mapdesign.

    I am curious to know what you think should happen next. Do you agree that your computer player instruction should be removed?
    As a general rule, don't modify stuff without permission. Because:
    It is my opinion that levels should be modified where necessary to maintain their original intent,
    This is exactly the problem. You don't know what the author had intended behind a map and gimmicks, therefore you cannot alter a map and claim you 'maintain' the original intent, simply because you don't know it.

    As long as I know WHAT you are doing with my work I will generally say 'go right ahead', but when it comes to this campaign in general I would argue it shouldn't even be included in KeeperFX. The simple reason being it uses a modified creature.txt which HEAVILY redoes every single creature in the game and their functionality, to the point -without- that modified creature.txt file functioning properly, all of the maps in this campaign are either too easy, too hard, nonsensicle, or outright unbeatable. And to people unfamiliar with the situation that again gives me a bad reputation as a mapdesigner I never asked for.

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    KeeperFX 0.42 does support custom per-campaign config files, but not exactly creature.txt - instead, there are numerous .cfg files with global config and creature configs.
    For now, noone has created any customized global config - only creature config is really customized.

    If anyone would like to create a config for this campaign, I'd gladly accept it.
    And unfortunately I am not familiar with KeeperFX nor have I done much with Dungeon Keeper for a long time. IF someone can be arsed to copy every single creature modification (and probably some spell modifications) from that creature.txt file into those config files, I would say be my guest and hope it still functions as it was intended to.

    This could be called map incompatibility, but the problem is far deeper.
    In sophisticated programs, bugs are often covered by other bugs. This makes fixing a bug quite hard, because the fix seem to destroy a lot of other functionalities.
    This is what happend in DK - using that option worked on vanilla DK, because pathfinding code had errors which were covering up the existing problems.
    Also, there was no memory access control, so modules were able to write to a part of memory which they shouldn't have access to.
    As I said, I am not blaming you for KeeperFX being incompatible with modified creature.txt requiring campaigns. It's just an unfortunately side-effect, but none the less a major one that renders the campaign pointless. Let me clarify: This campaign doesn't just tweak some minor stats and adds a spell here or there; it completely overhauls every single creature with vastly different stats and spells, and the maps are balanced around those creatures. They are not balanced at all around normal DK creatures, therefore without the modified creature.txt file this campaign is completely unplayable.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    DzjeeAr

    You are correct that it is impossible to truly know what the intent is/was. But I applaud the efforts of those who try to keep these campaigns playable. Myself and Pawel see people modifying Ancient Keeper (which we created), so I do know what you mean. AK doesn’t play as originally intended due to KeeperFX differences & fixes, so I guess people naturally want to fix them somehow. I’d rather this than the campaign be consigned to history, even though it seems like people are stealing our baby! You and I are here, but I’m guessing most map creators are long gone from the DK1 world. Should their maps be deleted if they cannot be asked for permission to make changes? It’s a tricky situation.

    It would be a terrible shame if any of your campaigns were removed from keeper FX. An experienced mapmaker like yourself would be a great asset to the DK1 world if you were willing? Then we could play these campaigns in their ‘true’ style?

    As to this particular campaign, do we actually know that the changes you made have not been translated into keeperFX? The original complaint relates to the slowdown (for which the cause is now known), and not to anything else. Mefistotelis has made it clear that he can include a campaign specific cfg file; is one needed? I can’t find a creatures.txt file (though I admit I didn’t try too hard to find one).

    However, even if the config changes were done, it is still true that KeeperFX can never be identical to original DK1. However, this can be an upside as well as a disadvantage (I recently made flying imps!). I can think of many things I’d like to try and do with KeeperFX (esp multiplayer).

    Anyway, I hope some resolution can be found that you’re comfortable with. It’s good to have you back here, even if only for a quick check-in. (I have only recently discovered this place myself).

    Dayo

    PS can’t stop – I’m off to paint a red nose on the Mona Lisa!

  7. #17

    Default Re: Quest for the Hero, level Sin-King incredibly slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    Should their maps be deleted if they cannot be asked for permission to make changes? It’s a tricky situation.
    Never deleted, of course. I would at any rate always keep the original maps available for those who are able to play them in their original form without KeeperFX. And if changes are made, save them seperately with an obvious, attached note that they have been modified to make them compatible for KeeperFX, including a warning they may not function properly.

    As to this particular campaign, do we actually know that the changes you made have not been translated into keeperFX? The original complaint relates to the slowdown (for which the cause is now known), and not to anything else.
    Uhr, when I browse the DK1 forum I actually see a LOT of topics about Quest for the Hero, and all of the issues discussed are a direct cause of creature.txt not being incorperated in KeeperFX. And again, even if maps are beatable, that doesn't say anything considering the actual challenge is completely gone or twisted. As a simple example in the first map, there's a ruined dungeon to the west with a lot of yellow-player creatures swarming it. Without the creature.txt file, they die from hunger. With it, they stay alive as intended. And that drastically changes the playability of a map.

    Mefistotelis has made it clear that he can include a campaign specific cfg file; is one needed?
    Several, from what I understood. Perhaps some day I can be arsed to look into KeeperFX and their cfg files. Part of the problem is that many things could have been changed, including spell functionality and gold amounts in goldblocks, and I don't quite remember what I changed beyond every single creature.

    However, this can be an upside as well as a disadvantage (I recently made flying imps!).
    Not really an upside as that was already possible before, but it may be easier and more convenient to do so now. As I said, I may have to look into KeeperFX some time.

    I can think of many things I’d like to try and do with KeeperFX (esp multiplayer).
    The first thing I discovered when I released modified campaigns was that the general public wasn't TOO keen on needing to relearn the functionality of every single creature, it's akin to playing an entirely new game, rather than the game they are experienced in. Hence I stopped using modifications after a while. The effects you can achieve by altering spells can be a lot of fun (dragons literally spamming meteors, wizards breathing entire cones of slow-moving hail), but most people would rather stick to what they know.

    Anyway, I hope some resolution can be found that you’re comfortable with.
    A simple attached warning that the campaign does not function properly in KeeperFX would do the trick untill I can be arsed to make time and see if I can properly incorperate it into keeperFX.

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