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Thread: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

  
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    Default I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Hello!

    I've been working on the stuff in order to reset everything back to the default. I've been looking again at the bonus levels and the rewards we get in these levels, but the texts in the game mention other kinds of creatures and I'd like your opinion about that.

    In my unofficial patch, I both fixed some texts and corrected the kind of creature we receive in these levels. I also altered the order of the bonus levels. However, I may have done the wrong moves.

    So here, what reward do you think we should receive in the bonus levels, considering their difficulty and the order of the bonus levels you discover? Here are the comparison between the creature we actually receive in the bonus levels by the script and the texts we get in the game about that:

    Bonus level 1 - First person dungeon
    There's a message claiming that, if you win this level, you'll get a . However, the trigger to show this message in the script has been REMoved since there's no Transfer creature bonus crate.

    Bonus level 2 - Slap the imps level
    The message claims that you'll receive two , which is impossible, but you get a high level instead.
    or ?

    Bonus level 3 - Fry the imps level
    The message claims that you get a , but you receive a instead. There's also a on the level.
    or ?

    Bonus level 4 - Find the hero level
    The message claims you need to find Ug the , but at the end of the course, you actually receive a .
    or ?

    Bonus level 5 - The inaccessible one
    Same message as the previous bonus level, which is irrelevant, and you can actually transfer either a hero or a if it hasn't evolved into a .

    Bonus level 6 - Full moon
    Same message again, but this time, no creature to transfer (you don't have one and there's no Transfer creature bonus crate).

    What do you think?
    Last edited by DragonsLover; September 3rd, 2013 at 22:01.
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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hello!

    I've been working on the stuff in order to reset everything back to the default. I've been looking again at the bonus levels and the rewards we get in these levels, but the texts in the game mention other kinds of creatures and I'd like your opinion about that.

    In my unofficial patch, I both fixed some texts and corrected the kind of creature we receive in these levels. I also altered the order of the bonus levels. However, I may have done the wrong moves.

    So here, what reward do you think we should receive in the bonus levels, considering their difficulty and the order of the bonus levels you discover? Here are the comparison between the creature we actually receive in the bonus levels by the script and the texts we get in the game about that:
    I'm slightly confused. You're doing this for your patch, or for the default? I'm assuming the former based on what you've said previously.

    I'll order these in what I consider to be the most difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bonus level 3 - Fry the imps level
    The message claims that you get a , but you receive a instead. There's also a on the level.
    or ?
    These sorts of situation make me wonder if you should give players an option between which creature they get. Giants are pretty good but they're somewhat situational with battles. Hell Hounds are nice, especially considering it's very difficult to obtain them normally. Considering the ease of this level, I'd say a mid level Giant or an early to mid level Hell Hound, as Hell Hounds train much faster. I would lean more towards granting a Giant honestly. Hell Hounds can train high level pretty easily and can cross lava, so you can easily abuse an early game Hell Hound. Giants are not as exploitable but are still very good bonuses. Both offer a sufficient boost in offense.

    And of course the Horned Reaper is out of the question. Probably should take him out or force him out with the script or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bonus level 2 - Slap the imps level
    The message claims that you'll receive two , which is impossible, but you get a high level instead.
    or ?
    Probably a low level Mistress if you want to stick to either possibility rather than finding a new creature. This map is pretty easy like the above secret, and a mid level of either one is too big a bonus in my opinion. Mid level Mistress means faster combat training due to lightning and faster training in general due to Speed. A low level Mistress still grants a bonus as you can't get Mistresses that early, then you can train them up and have a mid level mistress by the time you are able to attract them normally. Vampires are out of the question, quite frankly, as they offer a significant boost in research and can also scavenge enemy Vampires quite easily, which is important to note as that's all enemy Keepers produce with the dead.

    If you wanted to go with something else, could have a early to mid level Tentacle or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bonus level 4 - Find the hero level
    The message claims you need to find Ug the , but at the end of the course, you actually receive a .
    or ?
    Hard choice. On the one hand, this map is short and not the most difficult so even if you can fail, it isn't a really big struggle to redo it. On the other, Barbarians are so similar to Orcs, in fact inferior to them in the default game and maybe your patch (can't remember what you have set up for either of them to be honest) that it's not really a bonus at all. Orcs can be obtained fairly easily and train much faster as well. So Barbarians aren't worth it.

    On the other hand, you have the Priestess, who can easily be deadly if a Player uses her correctly from what I recall. So maybe either an early level Priestess, like Level 3 or 4, or another Hero like a mid level Dwarf or something. Dwarf's Rebound is pretty good and they can help in the Workshop.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bonus level 6 - Full moon
    Same message again, but this time, no creature to transfer (you don't have one and there's no Transfer creature bonus crate).
    I don't even know what to make of this level. I do recall it being a bit annoying from time to time. Definitely long and tedious. How about a low level Fly? Like Level 2 or something. Or maybe a mid level Warlock for bonus research and early burst support.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bonus level 5 - The inaccessible one
    Same message as the previous bonus level, which is irrelevant, and you can actually transfer either a hero or a if it hasn't evolved into a .
    May want to remove that Steal Hero special. It sets up too many complications. Essentially any Hero in that map, save for the Knight, can get transferred over through luck or save state abuse, which means a Samurai or Wizard. Both of whom are very strong. I'd say make it so you can get a mid to high level Dragon for this one, like Level 6-7. Don't remember what level the Dragon is normally though by the end of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Bonus level 1 - First person dungeon
    There's a message claiming that, if you win this level, you'll get a . However, the trigger to show this message in the script has been REMoved since there's no Transfer creature bonus crate.
    This is the hardest level, easily, and you should get a mid to high level Vampire, like level 6-7. I already described the effectiveness of a Vampire earlier so its worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    What do you think?
    This one is obviously the hardest secret level. I think you should be rewarded either with a high level Avatar, or a mid level Peter Molyneux, but make him no higher than Level 6 as we don't want to make it too easy to get his Level 10 "Summon Special" ability.
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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    These sorts of situation make me wonder if you should give players an option between which creature they get. Giants are pretty good but they're somewhat situational with battles. Hell Hounds are nice, especially considering it's very difficult to obtain them normally. Considering the ease of this level, I'd say a mid level Giant or an early to mid level Hell Hound, as Hell Hounds train much faster. I would lean more towards granting a Giant honestly. Hell Hounds can train high level pretty easily and can cross lava, so you can easily abuse an early game Hell Hound. Giants are not as exploitable but are still very good bonuses. Both offer a sufficient boost in offence.

    And of course the Horned Reaper is out of the question. Probably should take him out or force him out with the script or something.
    "Fry the imps" is easy by default since you have the abusive Cave-in spell. In my patch, you really have to use Lightning on enemy imps, which is way more fun and surely the way intended since everything on this level is about electricity (even in the in-game texts).
    is what I used in my patch. Therefore, I'll leave it as it is. Should I modify the default level to do the same thing?
    As for the Horned Reaper, it isn't in the script. He's hidden in the top of the level behind a locked door. It is low-level, but you can use the given bridge to access to the many "Increase level" bonus crates. I think that was the intention of the designers.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Probably a low level Mistress if you want to stick to either possibility rather than finding a new creature. This map is pretty easy like the above secret, and a mid level of either one is too big a bonus in my opinion. Mid level Mistress means faster combat training due to lightning and faster training in general due to Speed. A low level Mistress still grants a bonus as you can't get Mistresses that early, then you can train them up and have a mid level mistress by the time you are able to attract them normally. Vampires are out of the question, quite frankly, as they offer a significant boost in research and can also scavenge enemy Vampires quite easily, which is important to note as that's all enemy Keepers produce with the dead.

    If you wanted to go with something else, could have a early to mid level Tentacle or something.
    That's what I thought too. The easiness of the level makes getting the vampire too abusive.
    A tentacle? Not so much a good reward for a bonus level. A bit too early in the campaign too (you get the tentacles for the first time at Tulipscent).
    sounds fine, like in my patch. Again, should I bring the change for the default level?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Hard choice. On the one hand, this map is short and not the most difficult so even if you can fail, it isn't a really big struggle to redo it. On the other, Barbarians are so similar to Orcs, in fact inferior to them in the default game and maybe your patch (can't remember what you have set up for either of them to be honest) that it's not really a bonus at all. Orcs can be obtained fairly easily and train much faster as well. So Barbarians aren't worth it.

    On the other hand, you have the Priestess, who can easily be deadly if a Player uses her correctly from what I recall. So maybe either an early level Priestess, like Level 3 or 4, or another Hero like a mid level Dwarf or something. Dwarf's Rebound is pretty good and they can help in the Workshop.
    are stronger in my patch. They acquire like the .
    Since that bonus level is getting later in the campaign, a sounds good. Therefore, only the text needs to be altered. Should I do it for the default level?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I don't even know what to make of this level. I do recall it being a bit annoying from time to time. Definitely long and tedious. How about a low level Fly? Like Level 2 or something. Or maybe a mid level Warlock for bonus research and early burst support.
    Since it's all about gold, I was thinking of something attracted to it: a thief. That's what it's used in my patch actually. And yeah, I know about the fact he can evolve to a knight, but in most levels, you can already do that quite easily. The full moon also occurs once per month, so it's not such a big problem.
    For now, in the default level, you get nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    May want to remove that Steal Hero special. It sets up too many complications. Essentially any Hero in that map, save for the Knight, can get transferred over through luck or save state abuse, which means a Samurai or Wizard. Both of whom are very strong. I'd say make it so you can get a mid to high level Dragon for this one, like Level 6-7. Don't remember what level the Dragon is normally though by the end of it.
    In my patch, I made this level a "discover the dragon from the demon spawn". I made all bonus crates (excepted for the Transfer one) to be "Increase level". This gives a level 10 at the end.
    Actually, the level is inaccessible by default (unless you really want me to put that missing crate in Blaise End, therefore I'd need to bring more modifications).

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    This is the hardest level, easily, and you should get a mid to high level Vampire, like level 6-7. I already described the effectiveness of a Vampire earlier so its worth it.
    That's what I thought too, but by default, there's no Transfer creature crate bonus on that level. You get nothing.
    In my patch, it's fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    This one is obviously the hardest secret level. I think you should be rewarded either with a high level Avatar, or a mid level Peter Molyneux, but make him no higher than Level 6 as we don't want to make it too easy to get his Level 10 "Summon Special" ability.
    You silly.
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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    I've been experimenting with this as well.

    Level 1: as is.

    Level 2:

    Level 3: instead of

    Level 4: make enemies tougher, and have at the end.

    Level 5: as is

    Full Moon: once you win the level, you can cast armageddon and get a free

    To balance out the campaign, transfer creatures are reduced significantly, unless the next level is EXTREMELY difficult.
    or that is the question

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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    Level 3: instead of
    Hmm, I don't know. This is something I'm going to check more closely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    Level 4: make enemies tougher, and have at the end.
    Enemies tougher, maybe. at the end, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    Full Moon: once you win the level, you can cast armageddon and get a free
    NO! will remain the boss of the game, not a creature you can get under control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    To balance out the campaign, transfer creatures are reduced significantly, unless the next level is EXTREMELY difficult.
    I talked about the bonus levels, not the Transfer creature bonus crates.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Hmm, I don't know. This is something I'm going to check more closely.
    The is much better balanced than , so is a more suitable option. I'm thinking of moving the bonus level a bit earlier in my revised campaign.

    Enemies tougher, maybe. at the end, no.
    Given that the bonus level is acquired at Level 17, you might as well give the player , considering that Blaise End without him will be murder.

    NO! will remain the boss of the game, not a creature you can get under control.
    Couldn't you convert him in Skybird Trill in the vanilla campaign? Besides, I'm thinking of upping the risk/reward in that level by beefing up the heroes while increasing the money threshold.

    I talked about the bonus levels, not the Transfer creature bonus crates.
    This wasn't a recommendation, just something I was exploring in my revised campaign (still working on it)
    or that is the question

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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    The is much better balanced than , so is a more suitable option. I'm thinking of moving the bonus level a bit earlier in my revised campaign.
    The is generally considered as the big lord we have to fight at the end of levels. Besides, we already begin with 2 at the beginning of the next level. But anyways, the secret area he's in has been better sealed now. If again, it's a bit too OP, then something I could do is to get the as usual, but replace the by the . What would you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    Given that the bonus level is acquired at Level 17, you might as well give the player , considering that Blaise End without him will be murder.
    I'm playing Blaise End with a and it goes fine. Besides, you can still get from the previous secret level, unless I remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    Couldn't you convert him in Skybird Trill in the vanilla campaign? Besides, I'm thinking of upping the risk/reward in that level by beefing up the heroes while increasing the money threshold.
    Basically, you aren't even supposed to convert the in the last level. The in-game speech lets supposed that the 's body must vanish when defeated, preventing us to capture him and triggering the REAL ending combat where he resurrects. Since the game was rushed, the designers didn't have time to implement the code that handles that, thus letting us having the possibility to convert him foolishly.
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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    As a response to all default level questions, you should leave it as the default original. That's the whole point of them being default. Although, you should probably still correct the text messages.

    Also, as another idea, perhaps you could change the order of the secret levels so that the easier ones are earlier?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    As for the Horned Reaper, it isn't in the script. He's hidden in the top of the level behind a locked door. It is low-level, but you can use the given bridge to access to the many "Increase level" bonus crates. I think that was the intention of the designers.
    I think the Increase Level specials should be removed. Isn't it very easily abusable to transfer just about anyone there, beef them up on levels, then leave with that same creature?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    That's what I thought too. The easiness of the level makes getting the vampire too abusive.
    A tentacle? Not so much a good reward for a bonus level. A bit too early in the campaign too (you get the tentacles for the first time at Tulipscent).
    sounds fine, like in my patch. Again, should I bring the change for the default level?
    Oh yeah I forgot how early the level is. A mid-high level Spider or a a mid level Orc are some other alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    are stronger in my patch. They acquire like the .
    Since that bonus level is getting later in the campaign, a sounds good. Therefore, only the text needs to be altered. Should I do it for the default level?
    When does this secret level appear? I've forgotten. I know there's one in Tickle I always missed when I was younger, then one in Moonbrush Wood, and then there's one in Moonshrine, but that was the last one. I cannot remember where the third level was. Woodly Rhyme?

    Considering its so late in the campaign, you could up the difficulty just a little, or maybe make it a bit longer. But I'm all for the Priestess for the same reasoning as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Since it's all about gold, I was thinking of something attracted to it: a thief. That's what it's used in my patch actually. And yeah, I know about the fact he can evolve to a knight, but in most levels, you can already do that quite easily. The full moon also occurs once per month, so it's not such a big problem.
    For now, in the default level, you get nothing.
    I actually had the idea of a Thief but I was turned away from it because he turns into a Knight. But I guess its not really a big deal. You can get a Thief as early as Wishvale if I recall, and there are Transfer Creature Bonuses in every level from Snuggledell onward, so yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    In my patch, I made this level a "discover the dragon from the demon spawn". I made all bonus crates (excepted for the Transfer one) to be "Increase level". This gives a level 10 at the end.
    Actually, the level is inaccessible by default (unless you really want me to put that missing crate in Blaise End, therefore I'd need to bring more modifications).
    Well I still share the same opinion regarding the default level. But I'm fine with what you did in your patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    You silly.
    Me silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    level 3: instead of
    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    The is much better balanced than , so is a more suitable option. I'm thinking of moving the bonus level a bit earlier in my revised campaign.
    If a Thief is added to the Moon Level, then a Knight is redundant. Additionally, it doesn't add anything to the bonus level itself. It's obvious the whole point of the Horned Reaper is to slap it and annoy it so it kills the Imps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    Full Moon: once you win the level, you can cast armageddon and get a free
    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    Couldn't you convert him in Skybird Trill in the vanilla campaign? Besides, I'm thinking of upping the risk/reward in that level by beefing up the heroes while increasing the money threshold.
    What is even your reasoning behind this? I can't see anything that makes sense from what you say. In addition to what DL said regarding the broken atmosphere if you obtain The Avatar, you also run into the problem that the Moon Level can occur at any point in the campaign. Ergo you can get a free Avatar as early as Level 6 and then keep him for the rest of the game, effectively breaking the game even more than a Horned Reaper would. Even if he's obtained at Level 1, Avatars train really fast. But he doesn't need to train fast as he'll just eventually hit Level 10 regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    To balance out the campaign, transfer creatures are reduced significantly, unless the next level is EXTREMELY difficult.
    I don't think any level should be so hard that it practically requires or expects a Player to utilize a Transfer Creature bonus. That just sounds like bad level design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    Given that the bonus level is acquired at Level 17, you might as well give the player , considering that Blaise End without him will be murder.
    I found Blaise End to be really easy actually my first time. You can get up to 60 Creatures in that level if I'm not mistaken. The only real danger is digging north too early and running into that death trap Thief/Archer mass invasion that can kill you pretty easily. It's a bit of a dick move by the level designers tbh.
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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Just taking some pages out of Return of the Keeper (though i'm not going down the route of making the base difficulty be System Shock 2 on hard) and Ancient Keeper in my revised campaign.

    And blaise end is pretty much murder without the anyway. Why?

    1) you have 60 creatures, which you cannot maintain with the paltry resources at hand. You need to attack the heroes, and they will get wiped out.

    2) you cannot expand your base to fit their needs, because the heroes will start digging quickly, and you need to initiate area denial strategies quickly. The only way to do that is with a

    and last I checked, there wasn't a steal hero with a thief in the level

    Besides, Dragonia in Ancient Keeper was near impossible without the , so there is utility in that sort of level.

    As for the full moon level, what sort of reward should there be, if the would be overkill?
    or that is the question

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    Default Re: I need your opinion on the bonus levels

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    As a response to all default level questions, you should leave it as the default original. That's the whole point of them being default. Although, you should probably still correct the text messages.

    Also, as another idea, perhaps you could change the order of the secret levels so that the easier ones are earlier?
    Correcting the text messages is the tricky part since it'd have to be done on every language. Actually, by default, when the message is irrelevant, I REMove it.
    The order of the secret levels is changed in my patch. I swapped the first bonus level (first person dungeon) with the inaccessible one (the demon spawn one). The three others remain the same.
    However, by default, it stays as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I think the Increase Level specials should be removed. Isn't it very easily abusable to transfer just about anyone there, beef them up on levels, then leave with that same creature?
    Good point, but there's a problem: another bonus level, the one with the demon spawn, requires that you must boost it using tons of "Increase level" crates, and that's the goal of that bonus level. But I don't see it as much of a problem since you usually transfer a high level minion each time anyway. The only problem I may notice is along with the Thief for the full moon bonus level where you could quickly turn it to a level 10 . So, either I alter the Thief to something else or get rid of it, either I leave it as is. Otherwise, I'm awaiting your suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    Oh yeah I forgot how early the level is. A mid-high level Spider or a a mid level Orc are some other alternatives.
    So far, a is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    When does this secret level appear? I've forgotten. I know there's one in Tickle I always missed when I was younger, then one in Moonbrush Wood, and then there's one in Moonshrine, but that was the last one. I cannot remember where the third level was. Woodly Rhyme?

    Considering its so late in the campaign, you could up the difficulty just a little, or maybe make it a bit longer. But I'm all for the Priestess for the same reasoning as you.
    Moonshrine? Lol! Did you mean Mirthshire?
    Yeah, you actually get that bonus level on Mirthshire. Since the Locate Hidden Realm crate isn't well hidden and the level is quite easy to solve, I wouldn't see the bonus level to be too much challenging. I will buff some heroes, but nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I actually had the idea of a Thief but I was turned away from it because he turns into a Knight. But I guess its not really a big deal. You can get a Thief as early as Wishvale if I recall, and there are Transfer Creature Bonuses in every level from Snuggledell onward, so yeah.
    Read above about the "Increase level" crates problem thingy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    1) you have 60 creatures, which you cannot maintain with the paltry resources at hand. You need to attack the heroes, and they will get wiped out.
    Depends on the way you play the level. I can complete the level without even claiming the portal! And you have plenty of gold to train a few minions you find along the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    2) you cannot expand your base to fit their needs, because the heroes will start digging quickly, and you need to initiate area denial strategies quickly. The only way to do that is with a
    Heroes will dig toward you ONLY when you dig for the gold. If you don't dig for gold, you can expand your dungeon for as long as you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    and last I checked, there wasn't a steal hero with a thief in the level
    In the default version of the bonus level, there's a Steal hero bonus crate, yeah. There's no Thief however. But anyways, we were talking of the Full moon level here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    Besides, Dragonia in Ancient Keeper was near impossible without the , so there is utility in that sort of level.
    Hmm, having the helps, but even without, you can complete the level. It's very tricky, but possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades
    As for the full moon level, what sort of reward should there be, if the would be overkill?
    That's what we're already discussing above. But getting an is for sure a BAD idea.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



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