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Thread: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

  
  1. #11
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    It seems to me like you can't take any critique. There was a lot of stuff I didn't want to bother with in my first reply, but since you didn't seem to get a single thing we said I'll have to more into the detail I guess. Also, drop that defiant attitude of yours please. No one insulted you; we merely tried to tell you what we were thinking about that idea of yours. Anyways, about that stuff you were saying:


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Well I haven't really decided whether I really like calling this a patch all that much even though I have. I first considered it a patch-in-progress or a mod. I started calling it an unofficial patch when I realized that I'd already done more real changes to the game than such things as "Unofficial Patch 1.8" (and it seemed a bit arrogant of me to call my work-in-progress mod as patch 1.8 or 1.9 right from the start).
    If you try to take away from what DKII really was and make it into another DKI I think the word 'Mod' instead of 'Patch' would apply more. By the sound of things you seem to want to make it into an entirely different game instead of just fixing what is broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    My mod is intended to be both as a DK2 patch and a fix for DK2 problems.
    Great, but you try to change core mechanics that aren't even a problem just for the sake of having them like they were in DKI. The workshop system was heavily flawed in DKI, yet you want to revert the improved system of DKII back to it? You don't even seem to see how heavily abusive your handling of the traps and doors is, you can pretty much spam whatever you want, don't have to worry about costs or mana. This pretty much means you can spam traps everywhere instead of having to use them tactically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Let's not rush to make false claims such my patch "doesn't really fix anything". I could just as well claim that you've never actually even have played my mod with about the same (lack of) evidence.
    If you say you change half of the balancing to how it was in DKI (an entirely different game), but leave the other half of things like they were in the Vanilla version of DKII it's pretty obvious that there will be balancing issues, simply by logic. Especially if you have worked with the game balance as much as Rex did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    The changes listed in the original post are based straight from DK1 (although many of the numbers are calculated to fit in with the DK2 values for example health points have been multiplied up.) So unless I made a mistake in my calculations or I just made a blatant error I don't see what you are cringing about.
    Because DKII simply isn't DKI. Many things work differently, you can't just revert a few things to how they were in DKI and expect that it won't collide with all the other things in DKII that are different to its predecessor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Blah, blah, blah" I don't have time for the rest of this as it's baseless claims, borderline insults and putting the cart before the horse (making over-generalizations and conclusions before you even make your specific points of criticism).
    As I said, you don't seem to take critique very well. Rex mentioned the major flaws that stood out for him and tried to explain to you why these things were bad. There's no need to get into the detail with everything if there's a major flaw in the entire system, which is what he tried to make clear. No need to get all that cocky about his reply. If you don't think Rex was clear enough you could've just asked him to elaborate on what he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "A terrible idea for DKII's mechanics"? I hardly ever even used the workshop before this change and I don't think most other people ever did either, as it was better build combat pits and temples, get black knights and dark angels and then attack. At least now the workshop will be a potentially useful option.
    Don't make an assumption like that just because you do it that way. For a matter of fact, I know of a lot of people who constantly were using the workshop in the Vanilla version. In fact, it was pretty abuseable due to most traps not costing that much mana, which made it easy to spam traps. Boulder traps were army killers if slapped around. I wouldn't call that useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I don't see how gold and mana costs balanced anything. They just imbalanced things even further by making the workshop even less useful.
    They made you use your traps and doors wisely instead of just spamming them everywhere. Like I said, the Mana cost for some traps was a bit too low in the Vanilla version, but the system itself is a lot better than what we had in DKI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I wasn't aware of the workshop glitch. But regardless even if the workshop only gets used for magic doors and lightning traps thats better than before when the workshop normally didn't get used at all.
    Again, not true. Just because you didn't play the game that way doesn't mean that anyone did. With a good trap layout you could easily waste entire armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    By the way you claimed this is such a "terrible idea" but this came straight out of DK1.
    DKI had different game mechanics though; most importantly it didn't have the Mana factor which makes the whole traps-idea a lot more balanced. The Mana system and the workshop were one of the few things were DKII actually tried to improve on DKI mechanics. And it worked.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    It's so pointless (according to you), yet wasn't that how it was in DK1? I guess you're not much of a DK1 fan.
    Ha! FYI, I think I'm the only one on this board who prefers DKII to DKI.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Have you ever actually played DK1 (or my mod for that matter)? I think DK1 was much faster in general so of course I've increased her speed to reflect how much faster she was at attacking and moving in DK1. In DK2 she got gimped really.
    The Mistress in DKII works different to her DKI version though. And buffing her speed to match the DKI Mistresses one isn't really a good idea, since the game speed itself is faster in the first game. If anything, I'd say make 150% Game speed the default speed of DKII in your mod, because that one has the perfect pacing. Not ridiculous fast or slow, like DKI or Vanilla DKII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "The DM is already fast enough within the game's relative movement speed" I don't agree with that at all. Just look at how DMs move in DK1 vs DK2.
    She is one of the fastest units in the entire game, y'know?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I changed the imp's attack speed because that's how it was in DK1. I liked it better that way. What was so "insane" about how it was in DK1?
    The pacing in DKI was as flawed as it was in DKII. Like I mentioned above, something in the middle would've been perfect for both games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. Try changing the range of creature spells in DK2 and you will see it has an effect in-game. Also you offered the opinion that this was "an entirely pointless change" when I was changing the spell ranges to what they were in DK1. I'm guessing you're not much of a DK1 fan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    You asked why, well it was simply to get the DK2 dwarf to have a strength somewhere between the DK1 tunnelers and warrior dwarves.
    Why? DKII's dwarf isn't supposed to be either of those. He's mostly a Worker, with small fighting capabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    It's not my fault if the DK2 goblin was designed to be pathetic and useless. If it can't stand up to even DK1 tunnelers than that just goes to show how bad goblins are. I mostly only use goblins to make skeletons and vampires. This is a DK2 design problem by the original developers.
    I thought you were trying to FIX DKII? So you see an obvious design flaw and just brush it off with 'Not my problem'. Then you buff everything else (Oh wait, actually you jutst buff your precious DKI creatures, because fuck DKII's creatures, right?) and make him even worse of a unit, but don't try to fix him in any way at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Anyway it doesn't even really matter. It just makes the first levels of the campaign a bit harder. Which I enjoyed (I had started playing the campaign yesterday and I am on level 5).
    Creating an imbalance to make levels harder isn't really a good design choice. At all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Whatever Rex. I think DK2 vampires have slightly more damage than DK1 vampires, so I didn't change there damage because it would have been a slight nerf (I mostly tried only to implement DK1 changes that would make DK2 underpowered creatures better).
    Without taking the rest of the balance into consideration… But seriously, all you seem to do to change the balance is to buff things! The DKII vampire is overpowered! To make him work better within the games balance a nerf is what he would need. Instead of that you buff him even more, making him even worse than the BK's!


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Gaining it at a lower level adds onto the imbalance." Oooh the infamous DK1 imbalance! Rex I have to ask you: what versions of the DK games have you been playing compared to everyone else? The vampire gains drain at the same level it did in DK1.
    Accept it or not, but you precious DKI wasn't THE perfect game without any balancing issues. DKI got a lot of things wrong that DKII tried to fix or improve upon, even if it didn't fix half as much as it should have done in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I will venture to say that the drain spell in my mod is probably not imbalanced because: 1) Vampires only use more or less one time in a battle while in DK1 they could use it constantly. So they are not constantly regaining health. And how much health do you regain when you use the spell at the start of a battle, before any damage is probably even inflicted? You gain 0 health. So much for the health regain imbalance.
    You clearly have no idea how the creature AI works during battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Vampires needed to be buffed in DK2 to make them up to DK1 standards and to counter the imbalance of other DK2 creatures like black knights and dark angels. Are you going to argue that point with me? So your protests against my DK1 version of the vampire are pretty nonsensical to me.
    Why don't you nerf the BK and DA then to make them fit in better with the other creatures? All you're doing is creating a third overpowered creature.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    You say that players will have no problems dealing with a payday on my mod. What if they had 30 vampires? That would be a 67500 gold payday, wouldn't it? That's can be a pain on low resource maps and even if the DK1 vampire was imbalanced even then the high gold cost for massing vampires should provide more and more of a disincentive the more vampires the player tries to mass.
    Seeing how OP your vampire is now, they wouldn't even need 30 of them. Also, you seem to know that the DKI vampire was imbalanced. Why try to copy something that is flawed anyways?




    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I like this situation better than pure black knights and dark angels.
    Yes, now we have 3 OP units while the rest still sucks in comparison. Plus the weak units have been made even more useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    The goblin was already mostly useless in the first place, so nothing has really changed there.
    WHY?!?! I thought you wanted to fix things, not make them worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    What do you mean the "DKII creatures"? I can understand buffing goblins maybe, but are you asking me to buff black knights and dark angels too?
    Goblins, Rogues, Fireflies, Salamanders, etc… You buffed everything, but left half of the creatures in the game alone, destroying any form of balance DKII might have had. Granted, the Vanilla balance wasn't that great, but you basically make it ten times worse by only changing a fracture of things. When you change the balance of something, everything must be taken into consideration. If you don't want the BKs and DAs to be OP, change them so they fit in better with the overall balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "It just makes the game smaller and more limited as there's less viable Creatures that can be used." You are claiming the game is now more small and limited because creatures other than black knights and dark angels are useful? Did you have any actual substance or evidence for this rhetoric? Forgive me but I don't have much patience when people are insulting to me and they don't even have a valid point.
    You made half of the creatures completely useless, buffed everything else and left the strongest DKII units alone. Do you really think you created a good and working balance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    The only creatures which I think really fall behind at all are fireflies, goblins and salamanders. Which is not really a high priority for me to fix, since they were already last place in DK2 anyway. So if they fell a bit further behind... I can't really make myself care that much. It just makes the first campaign levels better by increasing the difficulty (they were quite boring before due to being too easy even for beginners).
    Your apathy towards everything aside from your DKI mechanics and units is what completely ruins any form of balance, whatsoever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    DK1 creatures needed a buff in DK2. That's not really a problem as you claimed. At least not to the huge degree you made it out to be.
    And the DKII creatures that were too weak like the Goblin? You seem to just brush everything DKII related off to implant DKI stuff that doesn't work within the current balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    You talk about all the "potentially undesirable statistical changes" in my mod, yet you haven't really provided me with any convincing, specific evidence for such "undesirable changes".
    Oh, I think Rex gave you a lot of examples on how your balancing is flawed. You just don't want to see it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    To the rest of your post, why even bother with making insulting and rhetorical comments that don't even go a tenth of the way towards actually making a constructive point?
    Where did Moth insult you? He's trying to show you how your whole approach on the matter doesn't work if you don't take EVERYTHING into consideration, which you clearly didn't if I read your answer to Rex post again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    f you like the standard balance of DK2 (mass black knights and dark angels with maybe skeletons and vampires mixed in) then you're going to be disappointed by the newest version of my mod. And I have no intention to cater to just your whims. I like the game better this way and I'm sure there will be at least some people who play my mod who will think the same and will not waste my time with negative rhetoric.
    No, I know that the Vanilla Balancing wasn't perfect, but it sure as hell beats your 'DKI stuff for teh winz, fuck all teh DKII things!!111!oneone!1' attitude. You try to improve DKII you said, but what you are doing right now with that balancing is the exact opposite of improving or fixing anything. It just makes everything so much worse by the way you approach the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    One main thing I didn't understand was the negativity about DK1 and a DK1-related DK2 mod on a DK1 dedicated forum.
    Whait, what? WHAT THE FUCK? This is a fourm about the DUNGEON KEEPER SERIES, not just your damn DKI! It's about 2 as well, and like it or not, some people actually prefer the second game to the first one. It's bad enough how people always have to bash DKII just because they're drooling all over their precious little game of theirs', but completely disregarding the 2nd game like you do, on the DKII SUB FORUM, which is obviously not for DK fucking One brings things to a whole new level, So I hope you understand why I'm pissed.

    That's it for now; I don't really feel like replying to another whole post of yours right now, maybe I will later however. Take it or leave it, but I don't like the direction your Patch has suddenly taken at all, and quite frankly, all this DKI glorifying of yours has made me lose my interest in it pretty quickly.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  2. #12
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    @Mothrayas

    Mein gott!

    "The Dark Elf is completely and utterly outclassed by the Warlock now" "I was referring to the Vampire." Maybe you should have mentioned vampires in the post? I assumed
    you were talking about warlocks because of the dark elf comparison.
    Then it seems you didn't pay enough attention. Look here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Dude, you took one of the most broken creatures of DK2, doubled his health and upgraded his spell power. How the heck can you in good nature say your mod has any sense of creature balance?

    That's not even starting into the further balance issues, namely being that <snip> the Dark Elf is completely and utterly outclassed by the Warlock now.
    How did you come to the idea I was talking about the Warlock in the first sentence when I didn't mention it or the Dark Elf until a few sentences later on? These are separate issues I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Second of all, I'm going by your patch notes up above, which say nothing about the Dark Elf." Those are just an excerpt of the changelog. They are only the DK1 related changes.
    This makes no sense. Why only post part of a changelog? It causes nothing but unnecessary confusion. You're pretending the other half of the changelog doesn't exist, which doesn't work because it totally does exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "I'll let you think whatever you want, but in that case, I think your opinion is ass-backwards." Feel free to implement the DK1 creatures into DK2 yourself rather than demeaning other people who desire the same thing as you.
    I'm not going to. In fact, if you paid attention, you'd already know why:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Your "DK1" patch idea is not going to work, never will, and is an exercise in futility. Just stop it.
    I'm not even going to start on it because I know it's not going to work. And honestly, why would I even want to do it? If I want to play something that plays like DK1, I'll just play DK1.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 20th, 2013 at 15:41.

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  3. #13
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    @WyrmCast
    Alright, I'm not going to bother replying to everything because it's going to be extremely time consuming and a waste of my energy, as you've continuously proven to be simply unwilling to listen to others. You've misunderstood and/or twisted the meaning of others several times, myself included. You've been doing it since the start of your reply to me, by changing the meaning of what I meant and was referring to when I said calling this a fix was very subjective. You took that statement out of context and practically gave it new context.

    You've taken all forms of criticism as personal attacks and responded very blatantly rudely, and shown a level of hypocrisy through said rudeness. There's also the additional baseless and ignorant accusations, such as your attempt to paint me as a DK2 fanboy in order to try and brush off anything I say about your mod. Questioning whether or not I've played DK1 is perhaps the most arrogant thing you could say as I have mention of a DK1 balance patch in my signature, right above the DK2 patch. Not to mention, I made plenty of references to KeeperFX and a similar issue it had.

    After all that, I hope you or anyone can understand why I don't want to waste my time with a lengthy, in depth reply as I would otherwise do and am usually known for doing. Instead, my focus will be replying on the one thing I think matters above all else at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The problem I have with this is that the General Improvement Mod started out with the goal of making DKII better and more playable, with changes that did things like make the AI better and expand existing gameplay with the addition of the Maiden, for example. Now you're changing the direction around with these changes and not necessarily improving the game in any way. Not everyone likes DK1 more than DKII, and out of those who do, not everyone will like the changes due to the additional imbalances it brings.

    For me, I'm fine as I only play my patched maps anyways. However, for anyone who is looking to use the mod, they have to deal with all the statistical changes made to the game, which may not necessarily be what they bargained for. KeeperFX had that same issue as some people just wanted to play the original game, which is why I wanted FX to hold true to the original game by default with any statistical changes remaining as they should, an optional patch.

    I think you should do the same for your mod so that people aren't forced to deal with the potentially undesirable statistical changes, when all they really want is the best of 1.51 and 1.7 through use of your mod. If someone really wants DK1, well, there's KeeperFX for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    If you want to play with black knights and dark angels every game then go play vanilla DK2 or an older version of my mod. I don't care for that personally. So if you don't agree with my latest changes, that's really too bad. Incidentally I didn't agree with some of the changes in your patch when I was reading the thread for it (did you really make it so bile demons don't use gas attacks and have an invincibility spell)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I'm not going to implement changes I don't agree with. People can always create their own mods or patches if they really want to. I kind of wish someone would really. Would be so much easier!
    This right here is where my problem with you lies. You're showing a selfish and narrow-minded way of thinking. You're basically denying people further access to your mod by forcing them to either accept your DK1 changes or get nothing. Balance issues aside, not everyone wants their DK2 game to be more like DK1. Your mod, up until this point, has been an expansion and improvement to DK2. Now you're changing directions and adding major statistical changes to the game that not everyone would want, as shown in the responses to this thread. What's more, and what is the actual issue, is that you're forcing people who want the former, a general improvement to DKII, to swallow the latter, radical changes to DKII. Do you even understand how unfair that is towards the former?

    Additionally, you seem to think that everyone and their dog has access and knowledge to be capable of making a mod/patch that is actually suitable to their needs. That is simply not true. People would be interested to try out your mod because it brings out the best of 1.7 and 1.51, as it has been repeatedly told to you. What they're not bargaining for is getting the game to try and act more like DK1.

    As you've demonstrated, not everyone has the knowledge required to meet about a goal for said patch. You can try to deny it all you want, but you clearly don't know shit about what you're doing when it comes to balance. You can't see it because you're so inexperienced, but you lack a severe understanding on how balance actually works and more so how to achieve it.

    What have you done to achieve balance? All you did was blindly copy some things DK1 did. You essentially made the same error as this guy, who tried to make the DK2 campaign into DK1 but blindly copied the maps over without any thought of adapting to the game's mechanics. What happened? The campaign became unplayable as it was impossible to beat it past a certain point. Even if you succeeded with your own mod, the best you would have gotten out of that was reach the same imbalances DK1 had. And then... what? You just made DK2 into an inferior game trying to be like its predecessor. Congratulations, now why would someone play that inferior look-a-like when they can play the original? Do you even understand the importance of keeping them as separate games?

    The "balance" you've achieved is just sad. Not even laughable, just sad. It's beneath even my original DK1 patch that I made when I was 14 or 15. But in the end, I don't really care about that. Everyone here has tried to tell you what's wrong with it but you just ignore them. After all that, I don't think anybody really cares that much anymore. You can think whatever you want about your balance. My only real concern is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex
    Your mod, up until this point, has been an expansion and improvement to DK2. Now you're changing directions and adding major statistical changes to the game that not everyone would want, as shown in the responses to this thread. What's more, and what is the actual issue, is that you're forcing people who want the former, a general improvement to DKII, to swallow the latter, radical changes to DKII. Do you even understand how unfair that is towards the former?
    This is why I even bothered with this thread to begin with. I don't really care too much about how poorly balanced your patch is and never really did, as ultimately my goal has always been to get you to not force its radical balance changes on people who didn't want it. You said you didn't agree with some of the changes I made in my patch? That's fine. I don't really care. There are many reasons why I did what I did, from creating balance to solving technical issues. But in the end, I'm not forcing you to play my patch. If you don't want it, then you just don't use it. It's as simple as that.

    But that's where your patch is different from mine. I've said it too many times already. People will play your patch because of things like the improved AI and Maiden. They don't want all these crazy radical changes added in there. The additional problem is that they can't just stick with older versions. You're going to make more improvement modifications to DK2, maybe fix some bugs, and people will be unable to have those actual fixes as they'll be forced to accept these undesired dk1 changes.

    If I recall correctly, you haven't done any changes to the actual executable, internally. So I would assume that you modified the Creatures by changing the Creatures.kwd file within the editor folder, yes? If so, then what is the big deal? It becomes a very simple matter, as you include changes to those files separately. That way, people aren't forced to apply all these radical changes unless they want them. It becomes an easy fix, one where everyone wins. It doesn't even demand that much out of you. Even less effort to argue here or to make the changes in the first place. How could you not want that solution?

    Lastly, because I can't stand this error...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. Try changing the range of creature spells in DK2 and you will see it has an effect in-game. Also you offered the opinion that this was "an entirely pointless change" when I was changing the spell ranges to what they were in DK1. I'm guessing you're not much of a DK1 fan?

    It's true that creatures will only see four tiles ahead, but that doesn't mean there shots should magically disappear four tiles ahead of them. That just doesn't make any kind of sense, at all. I really don't even understand why you're arguing with me about this.
    Actually, completely wrong. It is unsurprisingly you who is clueless. Range doesn't work that way. You're not even looking in the right configuration settings to change how far a projectile travels. That information is located in Shot Configuration. Health defines how long it is up and Speed is hopefully self explanatory. The Range stat under spell configuration only effects AI controlled Creatures (non-possessed in other words), as I mentioned before. Its useful for making it so a creature must move in closer in order to use a specific spell. I used that in my patch to create a solid formation with the support creatures.
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  4. #14
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    HOLYWAAAAAAAAAAARS!!!

    But seriously, stop. The guy does what he sees fit and right, and most of you are just bashing him with your "superior understanding and knowledge". Sofa experts, my ass. I mean, if you think that his patch is a failure, never will succeed ex cetera ex cetera, well, don't downoad it, don't install it. Don't use it. It's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    @WyrmCast
    Alright, I'm not going to bother replying to everything because it's going to be extremely time consuming and a waste of my energy, as you've continuously proven to be simply unwilling to listen to others.
    And then you write the lengthy explanation because "its "time consuming" and he is "unwilling to listen". Oh the irony.

    Seriously. Just stop.
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  5. #15
    Demon Spawn Keeper Decagon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    I mean, if you think that his patch is a failure, never will succeed ex cetera ex cetera, well, don't downoad it, don't install it. Don't use it. It's that simple.
    I think that you may have misunderstood the point of this debate, as not everyone was straight away claiming it was a failure. The point made was that the DK1-into-DK2 modifications were incredibly unbalanced and forced upon whoever uses the patch, while some people wanted just the fixing of DK2 features without the extra stat changes Wyrmcast made. Why else do you think that this argument has stretched on for as long as it has (post-wise)? If they thought it was a failure that would never succeed, why would they have bothered to continue the debate? They would probably just have ignored this thread entirely. They were looking forward to the fixes alone, as the Mod was originally intended for, from what I can gather. When Wyrmcast added all the extra changes, it effectively denied them the chance to build upon that Mod to try and improve DK2 even further, or better yet, make it a properly-functioning, well-balanced game. Hence, all of this fuss.
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  6. #16
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Look, I tested the previous version patch yesterday, and found out that the elves are unbalanced. I told Wyrmcast about that in a detailed explanation, and he agreed that they should be re-balanced. Why would't you guys take the same approach and instead of just bashing - go and see how it plays out? We are all reasonable here, and we all want to make this game a little better. I am pretty sure he will listen to a constructive feedback.

    There is that little gesture of politeness in the gaming industry. For example, a game designer wants to give feedback on the model the animator did. Good steps to follow are:

    - Say what you like about the product.
    - Say what you think should be improved in order to give the product an A.

    For example, I like the how he increased the damage of the elves. I like how elves are now are actually useful and dangerous. In order to get an A, the damage should be slightly reduced to balance out Elves' leveling and damage to other creatures.
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  7. #17
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Decagon View Post
    If they thought it was a failure that would never succeed, why would they have bothered to continue the debate?
    Oh people like to bash stuff. That's human nature. And it's much easier than being helpful.

    I do understand that the majority here was not trying to offend his work directly, because most of them more or less care about the game and this patch to succeed. What I'm trying to stress is that sometimes choosing the right words for your argument is more important than the argument itself.
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  8. #18
    Demon Spawn Keeper Decagon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    Oh people like to bash stuff. That's human nature. And it's much easier than being helpful.

    I do understand that the majority here was not trying to offend his work directly, because most of them more or less care about the game and this patch to succeed. What I'm trying to stress is that sometimes choosing the right words for your argument is more important than the argument itself.
    I agree completely (on both points ).

    So, from here on out, let's all try and work together to make DK2 better, yes? If the .exe can finally be sorted through this patch (balancing and other things like that can be sorted out later), DK2 might just get the respect it should have had all those years ago.

    Oh, and on a side note:

    DKII RULEZ! (I just had to say it)
    Current creatures in the RPG:

    Creatures in Northland


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  9. #19
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    To hopefully help put the balance debate to rest I have now gotten to testing the creatures. Here's what I've changed so far for the next version in progress:

    Bile Demon was admittedly very unbalanced and untested in last release. I think he was the strongest unit or one of the strongest. He could destroy black knights easily. But it should be fixed in the next release.
    Great, looks like you realized some of the issues I mentioned with the Vampire. Playtesting is necessary to reach a higher level of balancing, but there are some imbalances that stand out so much that you don't need playtesting to see the problem. The Vampire, Dark Elf, and Warlock are like this. I did not notice the Dark Elf's imbalances because they weren't mentioned in this thread, as they were in your general improvement mod thread, located somewhere in the second page. However, when I saw that you quadrupled their basic damage, I knew there was a problem immediately. Why? Because Dark Elves can one-shot themselves at Level 1, as they deal 1200 damage and only have 1000 Health. It's a good thing you changed it. Realism != Balance.

    The issue with Warlocks is their very early game Meteor spell. While their level 1 Fireball is still pretty crappy, at Level 4 they deal 2585 damage, which is greater than the previous Dark Elf's Guided Bolt (2400 damage), which is gained at Level 8. Its some pretty ridiculous damage when you combine it with their Health bonuses.

    As I mentioned in my first post, I originally didn't look deeply into the changes you made as I only spoke out about the most obvious things to me. I overlooked the damage buff of Bile Demons by accident, otherwise I would have mentioned that as well. 1200 is insane damage for any melee base unit, it's better than King Reginald's and a Dark Angel's damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Warlock: Primary researcher, DPS support unit, healer, and magic door destroyer.
    I don't understand this. How is the Warlock in particular a magic door destroyer? Magic Doors don't nullify physical damage like they did in DK1, they changed it to having the best Health regen and shooting Fireballs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Maiden isn't really completely implemented yet because she still can't be attracted through portals (though otherwise she's in the game). She's rather unchanged from how she was in 1.7 (except she has the slow and gas missile spells because her other spells simply do not work). Not sure what I really want to do with her.
    I still hold my stance that you should make this into a separate patch rather than fusing it with your general improvement mod, and this is why. You said that if people reject your DK1 changes then they will have to use earlier versions of the mod to avoid them, and this is why it is a problem. It cuts people off from potential fixes like the Maiden issue, just because they don't want DK2 to be more like DK1. It doesn't even matter if you succeed in your goal as there will always be people who prefer DK2 over DK1 and vice versa. Fusing the two projects just shuts certain people out, where as making them separate allows both type of players to enjoy the mod.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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    LOL, WFTO

  10. #20
    Orc Dark_Omega MK2's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Not to mention I think people tend to dislike sequels to movies which stray too far from the original...
    Can you please stop saying "i think most people" for once in your posts already!? It's getting on my nerves how you are pretending to be the "voice of the people" kind of guy, when you are clearly not in this case.

    It looks unprofessional when you say "I think people think this because i do."

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