Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 21 to 27 of 27

Thread: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

  
  1. #21
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    The only reason I didn't playtest was because I'd discovered a bug that made the campaign levels unwinnable from about level 5 and I wanted to release a fix for that as soon as possible, which I did.
    I've... actually been there. Only reason why my patch thread isn't properly maintained is due to a similar reason, as I wanted to get the patch out by a certain date for personal reasons and then I ended up spending so much time away from it that I haven't finished updating it. I'm not even actively working on it anymore even though I think I do need to get back to it. I even have an update for it prepped, though it is unfinished with campaign changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I thought the elves' and bile demons' high damage would be countered by slow recharge and shot delay times but it didn't pan out. I was actually surprise how much little the bile demon need improved to be on par with the black knight, so I had also overestimated that quite a bit. Bile demons seemed quite lousy to me in the base game. At least trolls would actually get to the workshop to work before stopping to whine about food or a pay day.
    Common balancing error, buff every aspect of a unit and turning it from underpowered to overpowered.

    The Black Knight, when it comes down to it, isn't necessarily that much more powerful on his own compared to other units. It's a massive complex mess of reasons as to why Black Knight spam is so irritating to deal with. The Black Knight comes with the Combat Pit, for example, which is insanely cheap for its purpose and accelerates the Black Knight's training speed from 20 to 100, effectively more than double a Goblin's training speed (As in not combat exp) for more than double the stats. The Black Knight also has an incredible Threat value, while other units have a pathetic Fear value. Not counting the obvious Fearless units, there's only four units that can stand against a Black Knight of equal level and not run away. Mistresses, Bile Demons, Dark Angels, and Black Knights. The latter two don't count for much.

    The Bile Demon is weaker than the Black Knight in vanilla because his greatest asset is his 6000 Health, making him a tank. This is countered far too easily by one of his greatest weaknesses, his stun time. 5 seconds is higher than any other units, even the BK's 4 second stun. Additionally, he has extra vulnerability time due to his recovery animation being half a second, where as the BK gets up more instantly. Combine that with the fact that stunned units take double damage (with extra bonus stun time based on how much stun time is remaining) and the Bile Demon is effectively countered. To make things worse, he has the lowest training speed in the game, hungers often, and is dreadfully slow in movement. His raw damage may be higher than a BK's, but his recharge time is noticeably inferior.

    This is what makes the BK OP and the Bile Demon sucky in vanilla. Understanding that first makes it easier to balance things. I would suggest dropping the Black Knight's Threat value and, as Hapuga suggested, raising the Combat Pit price. The Bile Demon could be turned into a better tank by reducing his stun time.

    Also, I don't think Dark Angels are really that OP. They have insane offense, yeah, but their Health is only 3000 and they are not really spammable units as it costs 75k gold for a 5x5 Temple and it only gets the Player 2 of them. Trying to exploit that early game like the BKs isn't really possible without leaving said player vulnerable for a good while. It's more of a late game thing. If the Combat Pit price is increased, it makes it even harder to exploit as a Player would have more difficulty affording both things.

    You should test the Bile Demon's gas a bit more just in case. It's been a while since I playtested it, but there was a reason why I removed it in my patch. I recall it was a little glitchy and didn't consistently deal damage, as in enemies didn't get damaged at all. I didn't like those kinds of inconsistencies so I removed it. Same thing with the Gas Trap, and I had to change the shot type to a Spike Trap actually, made it have AoE instead to differentiate it from the actual Spike Trap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Magic doors are immune to creature melee attacks in patch 1.51 (at least in my game). Making them vulnerable to melee must have been some kind of undocumented change in patch 1.61 or 1.7. Nonpossessed melee creature will just run at the magic door and not be able to attack it and if you try to possess a creature to attack it the melee attack will have no effect on the door.
    Strange. That certainly isn't the case in 1.3, or they'd be practically impossible to destroy in my patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    The DK1 changes are really not all that significant, I mean compared to the claims that I'm trying to turn DK2 into a DK1 clone. The imps move quite a bit faster and so do a few creatures. Heroes are buffed so they are less pathetically easy in the campaign. Creatures in the process of being balanced a bit. Creatures got some different/better spells. Paydays are slightly different (except for vampires). It's not even close to a DK1 total conversion, it's just things I liked better about DK1 which I want in the game and which I've read other people complain about in old posts. I'm not sure what is so offensive about using DK1 data to correct flaws in DK2 (such as bad bile demons) and to keep the sequel a bit more true to the original. DK2 is supposed to be the second dungeon keeper game after all.
    There's three things to note here as to why it stirred up a lot of attention. The first is the nature you went about it, which I found concerning. Taking inspiration from one game and putting it into another is fine, but you have to properly adapt things to the game's mechanics and feel in order to do it properly. You didn't seem to be doing that, as you were just trying to get a literal translation/mimicking of stats. The issue here is like with the Workshop. The Workshop in DK1 had its own imbalances as you could sell it for gold, and while you don't get that in DK2, you have the issue of spamming ranged Traps and the fact that Creatures actively attack Traps so you can't just blitz through them like in DK1. Imagine a 7x7 room full of Lightning Traps. That would normally cost 105k gold to make and be impossible to maintain due to a mana drain of 875, not to mention mana to fire, but with the DK1 Workshop concept, its practically free.

    I think the Fairy is also the best example to use to convey my point as well. You said you haven't played my patch, so you might not know this, but I also take a lot of inspiration from DK1. The Fairy is an example of that. The DK1 Fairy is a massive nuker of spells and damage, but is frail and easy to kill. A ranged glass cannon, basically. Her design in DK1 synergizes with the game's mechanics. The Lightning spell in that game, for example, hits up to 10 times, dealing 20 damage each. Drain hits 2 times, dealing 20 damage each. The Fairy has a very high luck stat, 40 if I recall, which is a 16% chance to critical with each of her attacks. Combine that with the multi-hitting spells and she can easily add up damage.

    The question then becomes, how do implement this into DK2? Well, what you tried to do is give her the same abilities as in DK1, but it doesn't really work effectively. Lightning is a stun ability while Drain works based off of Health, which the Fairy lacks. Heal was a self-cast spell in DK1 and helped her survive a bit longer, where as it doesn't work nearly as effectively in DK2 for the same purpose. Especially as the game glitches for non-Warlocks/Monks, making it so other Creatures can't cast it on themselves. (Skeleton Army has a similar issue with non-Dark Angels) As a result of the changes in the game's mechanics, the Fairy with your modifications doesn't play out the same way as she did in DK1. She doesn't follow the same concept.

    Meanwhile, the Fairy in my patch does resemble the DK1 Fairy. It was tricky to do as DK2 only allows three spells, but I managed to do it properly. I gave her Hail for good AoE control and to add to the chaos of battle. I gave her Thunder, which is an alteration of Lightning. While Lightning is ideal for stunning with its low damage and recharge time, Thunder is more focused on damage but sacrifices the stun advantage with a higher recharge time. This also makes Thunder especially effective in the water, which adds to the Fairy's damage output. Additionally, Lightning-type damage and Drain pierces Invulnerable. Lastly, I gave the Fairy Super Meteor, which is a personalized spell for her. It is powerful to suit her purposes, but also has a low recharge time to allow her to attack more frequently. The frequency of which she attacks combined with the damage she deals is important to note, as it goes with the whole nuker concept.

    Do you see the difference between the two Fairies? This all changes because of the approach taken on the ideas, as it changes the final execution. The first thing that bugged people was your approach on the implementation of these ideas.

    * * *

    The second thing that bugged people was that you weren't addressing everything. You ignored Creatures like the Goblin and Salamander, which basically made them dead weight units. There's not much point to trying to achieve balance with some things and not others, unless you're making small number of key changes like with the Black Knight's Threat value. You were creating a significant amount of changes, and a lot of them weren't really necessary. All they did was change the feel of the game, which is what makes them more radical.

    The funny thing about DK2's balance is that you can easily counter it in a multiplayer match. Remove the Temple, Combat Pit, Graveyard, and maybe Prison and you're essentially good to go. But with all the crazy buffs you added, a lot of things became OP and the game is more or less split between super OP, OP, and UP without much of a middle ground.

    * * *

    Lastly, you were tying it in with your general improvement mod. Not much to say on that that's already been said, just restating that as it was the third reason for people's criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Not to mention I think people tend to dislike sequels to movies which stray too far from the original...
    I tend to dislike sequel games if they basically repeat the mechanics of the previous games. There needs to be some changes to the mechanics else there isn't much of a difference between a sequel and an expansion. DK2 succeeds in this with changing of things like how Traps and Doors work. It fails as a sequel because of certain changes that cause it to lose the same atmosphere/feel as the original game. These are things that you cannot easily fix without radical changes, changes beyond even what I did with the editor. Meaning you can't really appeal to people that dislike DK2 because it loses atmosphere from DK1 without displeasing DK2 fans that are happy with the game as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Many of the changes are probably going to get axed anyway. I'll still have to figure out the right balance for the workshop to make it a bit more useful in an average multiplayer game.
    It isn't so much that the Workshop is inferior, so much as it is that there exists some OP things like the Combat Pit that make it an inferior option. In my patch, Traps and Doors are essentially about the same, even costlier in some respects, and it is still an incredibly viable option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    If the DK1 vintage changes really offend people so much I guess I could release a version stripped of them. Didn't really expect to have to do such a thing but then I didn't expect an uproar about it either, considering all of the DK2 bashing I've read in the past.
    I'm going to say it right now. I hate vanilla DKII with a passion. I don't know if anyone can hate the game as much as I do, and that is a very bold statement to make. I think the game is massively overrated. Aside from the obvious problems the game has, what makes me despise it so much is the amount of effort that went into the game, or lack thereof. The statistics reveal all with their blatant similarity and laziness. I think the Salamander's Level 8 Fireball being weaker than a Warlock's Level 1 Fireball (225 vs 300) is my favorite example of this. You don't even have to play or work with the game as much as I have to know how little effort was put into a lot of these things, but it does help in revealing the faulty coding in many creature related aspects. I'm baffled that I could even progress my patch as far as I did with the way I feel about the game.

    Yet, despite everything on how I feel, it is still important to acknowledge the differences of opinion and that some people simply like DK2 over DK1. To that end, in all fairness, yes I do think that you should release a separate version for your mod.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  2. #22
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Quebec
    Posts
    1,490
    Gamer IDs

    Steam ID: dragonslover

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    The Lightning spell in that game, for example, hits up to 10 times, dealing 20 damage each. Drain hits 2 times, dealing 20 damage each.
    You sure of that? I remembered trying it myself and it was around 3 times more for the lightning, and only 1 hit for the drain, but it seems I may be wrong.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  3. #23
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    You sure of that? I remembered trying it myself and it was around 3 times more for the lightning, and only 1 hit for the drain, but it seems I may be wrong.
    It's the Health value in the shot data I think. It's been a while since I worked with DK1 so I forget where the data is located, but I'm certain that the health is set to 10 in default DK1. So it exists for 10 game turns and hits more so long as the unit stays in the same spot. Drain and Flame Breath work the same way, and I'm certain of their Health values as well. Drain doesn't make any extra sound though, which is probably why it goes unnoticed.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  4. #24
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Quebec
    Posts
    1,490
    Gamer IDs

    Steam ID: dragonslover

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Interesting. I will try to investigate on this.

    EDIT: That's right. So it means that a frozen creature will receive actually 10x the damage of the spell (20) for a devastating 200 points of damage that cannot be countered? That's even more than the hit that can be rebounded! THAT was the thing that made the lightning spell a bit insane imo. I greatly reduced that value for my patch now so that it will actually cause 4x the damage for a reasonable 80.
    Last edited by DragonsLover; October 23rd, 2013 at 19:26.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  5. #25
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Interesting. I will try to investigate on this.

    EDIT: That's right. So it means that a frozen creature will receive actually 10x the damage of the spell (20) for a devastating 200 points of damage that cannot be countered? That's even more than the hit that can be rebounded! THAT was the thing that made the lightning spell a bit insane imo. I greatly reduced that value for my patch now so that it will actually cause 4x the damage for a reasonable 80.
    I'm aware, that's why the DM is SO broken. I don't remember my exact changes but I reduced the damage and I think the recharge time of the spell. I think one of the biggest things I did was increase the Health to 20, while damage was something like 5-8. This made it so the DM was weaker when she was being chased, as that was the thing that irritated me about her the most.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  6. #26
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I've become convinced myself to remove the DK1 consistency changes (except for ones used to balance DK2 problems such as the Bile Demon).

    Does anyone object to this?
    None from me, as probably expected.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  7. #27
    Demon Spawn Keeper Decagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Tanis Base, The Great Derelict
    Posts
    183

    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    In my experience with playing DK2, I have always utilized varying Traps and Doors, in both the original and the Balance Patch. You say you favor using Spells over Traps, but Spells can only take you so far (not to mention, you must be at literally every battle to cast them, which is not very handy on maps where you are attacked from several different angles at once). Having the Mana Cost to maintain the traps so low is fine, but that will still encourage spamming. You see, I am a very defensive player. I usually build up a huge arsenal of traps and doors (even Guard Posts, believe it or not) to defend my dungeon for me, to allow my creatures to train, etc. in peace. But the one thing that usually restricted me was not the Gold cost, but the Mana to maintain cost. With the original values (and without an endless number of Mana Vaults, because they are relatively rare on most maps), I could build a decent trap room along with a number of traps around my Heart. With these new values, I can build at least twice that, if not thrice, and still have enough Mana income to support their firing cost. And in certain cases, such as Multiplayer, having to slog through that many traps before you even get to someone's creatures, can ruin the fun a bit for the one attacking.

    But this is just my opinion, of course.

    Personally, I think you make the changes within the patch based too much around your own play-style, without taking into account others, like mine, and the impact it can have on, say, the balance of maps and/or Multiplayer matches. You must try to view the game from perspectives other than your own, and then you can make a patch that appeals to every type of Player.

    Anyways, keep up the good work!
    Current creatures in the RPG:

    Creatures in Northland


    Creatures in RCI



    Creatures in Faircoast


Similar Threads

  1. Hive Keeper - Dungeon Keeper remake on Starcraft 2
    By Bibendus in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: March 9th, 2024, 12:46
  2. Dungeon Keeper Ami
    By Aelphais in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: July 25th, 2011, 06:47
  3. Best Dungeon Keeper Fan
    By dk2player in forum Silly
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: February 12th, 2010, 19:58
  4. Dungeon Keeper 3D
    By Hyzoran in forum DK1 Troubleshooting
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: November 15th, 2009, 08:26
  5. Does keeper klan have a wiki for dungeon keeper?
    By kyle in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: November 6th, 2009, 15:02

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •