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Thread: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

  
  1. #1

    Default A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Removed.
    Last edited by Wyrmcast; December 29th, 2013 at 12:58.

  2. #2
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Calling this a patch is much more suitable than a fix. This doesn't really fix anything, its highly subjective. Also, no offense, but looking at this makes me simply cringe at the balance aspect. DKII was hardly balanced to begin with as everyone knows, but this arguably makes it worse. There are some pretty blatant problems with it, and I'm sure I'd easily find many more if I delved more in depth with it. Looking at it makes me question how you decided on some of these things or how much you've tested them, as there's also a noticeable amount of very useless changes.

    I don't intend to reply to everything there, just some of the more major things that stand out to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    -Traps and doors no longer cost gold to build, they only need the
    effort of creatures working in the workshop to build them.

    -Traps and the magic door no longer cost mana to maintain or fire.

    -Lightning trap damage increased from 400 to 800.
    This is a terrible idea for DKII's mechanics. DKII manufacturing offers far more control over what you build, and additionally there's the issue of ranged Traps being more powerful but balanced by things like Mana Cost per fire to make it really not very possible to spam them (not counting the Temple but Temple is OP anyways). Some of the Doors are balanced by Gold Cost as well. Removing both balancing aspects, well, that would generally offer an imbalanced outcome.

    This is worsened by the Workshop glitch, which makes all Workshop products cost the same Manufacture Points as the first product produced. Unless you fix that glitch, there's absolutely no reason for anyone to not build a bunch of Magic Doors and Lightning Traps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    -Mistresses now move and attack 40% faster.

    -Imps now attack 70% faster.
    Why? Dark Mistresses already attack at max speed, or at least almost max speed. The attack animation overrides the melee recharge time. Not to mention, you made them into support Creatures so its pretty pointless. This really only effects possession, meaning the change only worsens an existing imbalance.

    But I suppose the bigger question is, how does this move the game more towards DK1? Dark Mistresses already are some of the fastest Creatures in DKII, much like in DK1. The only reason I can think of is trying to mimic the DM's Speed buff, but that sounds like its going overboard since the DM is already fast enough within the game's relative movement speed.

    What I don't understand is the point of changing the Imp's attack speed, for the same reason as with the Dark Mistress. It just makes for some insane possession mining/claiming speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    -Warlock Firebomb spell range increased from 4 to 14.

    -Warlock Fireball spell range increased from 4 to 8.

    -Wizard Firebomb 1 spell range increased from 4 to 8.
    This is an entirely pointless change. Possession range with spells and melee is fixed, so it doesn't effect anything there. Creature units also can't cast spells on targets they can't see, and their field of view is limited to 4 tiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    -Dwarfs now learn the Cast Armour spell at level 7.
    I gave Dwarves buffing spells in my patch before, but then I found that they didn't cast any of the spells under the same conditions normal creatures would, so I removed them. I'm certain this has to do with the miner AI. Ergo, this may or may not be a pointless change. Have you tested this to make sure it works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    -Dwarves health increased from 1000 to 2746.

    -Dwarves attack damage increased from 130 to 250.
    Why? This makes Dwarves, a miner, stronger than Goblins as you've done nothing to buff the latter. Goblins have 1500 Health and 170 Attack. Their attack speed is about the same as a Dwarf's, if not slightly longer due to animation speed. Now Goblins are even worse by comparison if they can't even handle a Dwarf on the same level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    -Vampires now learn the Slow spell at level 3 instead of
    level 4.

    -Vampires now learn the Heal spell at level 5.

    -Vampires now learn the Drain spell at level 6 instead of
    level 8.

    -Vampires no longer use the Raise Dead spell.

    -Vampires health increased from 2500 to 5169.

    -Vampire pay increased from 750 to 2250.

    -Vampires can now walk on water.
    This makes Vampires into the next Black Knight. They were pretty powerful to begin with, but this is worse. Unlike DK1 Vamps, DK2 Vampires have superior melee damage capabilities. Boosting their Health makes them tanks as well, especially when you combine that with resurrection. Additionally, Drain works based off of a Creature's Max Health, so boosting his Health also makes Drain even more powerful. Gaining it at a lower level adds onto the imbalance. Heal only makes it worse, and the removal of Raise Dead is arguably a buff. Higher Payday doesn't offer much balance since you made other Creatures cheaper, and expenses in DKII are generally quite low to begin with, so Players should have no problem dealing with a 2K payday.

    * * * * * * *

    There's some questionability with the general changes made to ranged units. A lot of them have some buffed spells and also receive said spells earlier on. This makes ranged units into an early game/rush type unit, which can result in some problems. Its one of those things I'd have to delve deeper into before I really decide on it, but I'd like to point it out regardless.

    * * * * * * *

    Another concern of mine is that you ignore the DKII Creatures, blatantly so. Aside from the Hero boss units, you haven't made a single change to any of the DKII Creatures. Normally I wouldn't be bringing this up, but as I pointed out with the Goblin, it definitely messes with the balance of the game and quite considerably. The Dark Elf, for instance, is absolutely useless compared to the Warlock. The Warlock has more Health, better spells, gets their best spells earlier, and can research.

    I understand this is a patch to make the game more like DK1, but that's a poor excuse to ignore the DKII Creatures if that's your reason for doing so. It just makes the game smaller and more limited as there's less viable Creatures that can be used. The changes made to the DK1 Creatures are almost always buffs, meaning the DKII Creatures fall behind, and that is a problem.

    * * * * * * *

    Lastly, I don't really agree with the general direction of what you're doing. There's really no point in trying to make DKII mimic DK1, as you can't really do it effectively as a result of the changes in mechanics, as shown with the Trap/Door changes. You'd have to do some really radical changes to the game to make it work decently, and at that point, you might as well just go play DK1.

    The problem I have with this is that the General Improvement Mod started out with the goal of making DKII better and more playable, with changes that did things like make the AI better and expand existing gameplay with the addition of the Maiden, for example. Now you're changing the direction around with these changes and not necessarily improving the game in any way. Not everyone likes DK1 more than DKII, and out of those who do, not everyone will like the changes due to the additional imbalances it brings.

    For me, I'm fine as I only play my patched maps anyways. However, for anyone who is looking to use the mod, they have to deal with all the statistical changes made to the game, which may not necessarily be what they bargained for. KeeperFX had that same issue as some people just wanted to play the original game, which is why I wanted FX to hold true to the original game by default with any statistical changes remaining as they should, an optional patch.

    I think you should do the same for your mod so that people aren't forced to deal with the potentially undesirable statistical changes, when all they really want is the best of 1.51 and 1.7 through use of your mod. If someone really wants DK1, well, there's KeeperFX for that.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; October 19th, 2013 at 09:33.
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  3. #3
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I would just like to announce to players of Dungeon Keeper 1 that my General Improvement Mod for Dungeon Keeper 2 now reverses many of the changes between DK1 and its sequel that many players found offensive.
    Does this mod bring back the Beetle, Spider, Demon Spawn, Dragon, Orc, Tentacle, etc.?
    Does this mod remove the disliked new units such as the Salamander, Dark Elf and Black Knight?
    Does this mod bring back the overall faster pace of DK1?
    Does this mod remove the Combat Pit?
    Does this mod bring back the cap of 10 spells per creature?
    Does this mod bring back the sense of creature balance that DK1 has?

    If not, then why even bother with a mod that doesn't even go a tenth of the way towards actually playing like DK1?

    You make it clear that you base your changes on "fixing" bad things from DK2 to how they were in DK1, but you don't seem to have noted what parts of DK2 are actually considered bad and require fixing. This aimless approach just leads nowhere. What you have now is an imbalanced mess that, while it has several nods towards DK1's gameplay, still plays nowhere near like it.

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    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Aside from the obvious balancing issues Rex already mentioned, there's one more thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    So I would just like to point out that if you didn't care for certain of the changes from DK1 to DK2 that version 0.62 of my mod now fixes many of the bad things in Dungeon Keeper 2 to make the game more in the style of the original Dungeon Keeper.
    Why? Are you trying to fix DKII or trying to remake DKI with mechanics that work fundamentally different to how they did in the first game? On top of that, some people prefer DKI yes, but there are also a lot who can't stand it while they love DKII. Like me, I really hate DKI and most of its stupid game mechanics, while I love playing DKII. Why ruin a game by trying to change it into something it can't possibkly be, especially if it's being changed into in inferior game (Sorry DKI lovers)? As someone who loves to play DKII and not its predecessor I wouldn't even want to play your mod, even if it fixes a lot of things, since right now, it wouldn't be DKII anymore, but more a carbon copy of the first game.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  5. #5
    Demon Spawn Keeper Decagon's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Well, I think that this patch shouldn't be shunned like it is before it is complete, at the very least. I can see Rex's/Skarok's/Mothrayas' side of it, and it seems perfectly reasonable believe it or not, but I can also understand your point. I mean, this is your creation after all. But seriously, guys, there's a way of saying things that doesn't sound so incredibly negative, and frankly, insulting. I know that you have a critical point to make, but the way you lot went about making it, it was bound to cause a defensive reaction.

    Oh, and Wyrmcast, Rex certainly does know what he's on about. He is quite knowledgeable about both DK1 and 2. So, don't just treat him like some idiot before seeing his side of things. Why don't you try Rex's patch, instead of just reading about it? I've got it, and trust me, it is brilliant.

    Although, I have to say one thing, Wyrmcast. I know you want DK2 to be more like DK1, but you have to remember, Dk2 is its own game. If it was meant to be like DK1, Bullfrog would have made it so, but they didn't. I'm not opposing your patch, but I think you must be more open-minded about the real differences between the games. They are, after all, two different games.

    A similar thing had once happened with another strategy game series I've played, Homeworld 1 and 2. Some players were disappointed with some changes made by the developers in HW2, compared to HW1, and people set about making HW2 like HW1, but what they forgot was that Homeworld 2 had a different style of play, with different units. So, the changes made by the fans pretty much made things worse, which eventually ended up in a half-complete mod which was a mess. I'm just trying to make you see that sometimes, trying to make the sequel of a game to be the same as the original is not always a good idea. But, if you think you can pull this off, then I'll continue to support you with suggestions and potential modifications.

    Anyways, onto some suggestions:
    • For the Workshop, I can see why you wanted to make it like DK1, as in everything's free, but that makes the Workshop highly abusable. Basically, all you have to do is build an endless number of Magic Doors or Fireburst Traps, and sell them for huge profits. This means that essentially it ruins the balance of the Gold on a map, much in the same way that the Gold cheat does. I know this from the experience of both cheating in DKII (I will admit it) and playing DK1. DK1, although, had the added imbalance of impenetrable reinforced walls, so you could pretty much sit in your dungeon, build, place, sell Magic Doors, while training everything up to level 10, and unless someone had a Destroy Walls spell, you would be all-powerful and invincible.
    • Having the Traps drain/use no Mana not only removes a key characteristic of DK2's trap system, also allows a player to build an endless amount of normally high-mana-to-fire traps, like the Fireburst traps, which I guess would indeed be similar to the Word of Power traps in DK1, albeit without the pushback. This would cause problems, as it would make invading other people's dungeons nigh impossible, in Multiplayer, for example.

    Perhaps try and tweak the original values for price/mana usage/mana drain around a bit, to make it better than the original DK2 but not as abusable as DK1.

    Keep up the good work!
    Last edited by Keeper Decagon; October 20th, 2013 at 09:18.
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    Orc Dark_Omega MK2's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I hardly ever even used the workshop before this change and I don't think most other people ever did either.
    You speak of people here making "Baseless claims" when you are the one actually making claims you don't have proof for. Personally i am not one of those "most people" and i do actually use the workshop consistently.

    Whatever the subject and whoever is right or wrong here, you are taking this in the complete wrong way. I suggest you chill out and calm your nerves a bit.

    These people are offering you criticism about two games which are completely different one another (mechanically speaking)

    For starters, i could say: "DK1 and DK2 have a very different pace, as in: the two games go at different speeds by default, that on itself is a conflict." and what? are you gonna take it in the wrong direction, if you do, i will just assume you cannot comprehend my posts as you have completely mislead the intentions of everyone here.

    We are not trying to beat this idea into the ground, but understand this: There is a reason why DK1 and DK2 are different games!

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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Wyrmcast, flee this place. These souls will show no pity. They will rest nothing short of completely breaking your soul. Seek gratitude and pleasant thought elsewhere, or fall to despair.
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  8. #8
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Does this mod bring back the overall faster pace of DK1? ... Does this mod bring back the sense of creature balance that DK1 has?" On those points, yes it does (to a degree).
    Does it bring back the overall faster pace of DK1? I see a handful of movement speed adjustions in the patch, but that is all. I doubt combat is still anywhere near the pace of DK1, particularly since as far as I know, no animation speeds are adjusted, which would be a pretty relevant factor.

    Does it bring back the sense of creature balance that DK1 has? Dude, you took one of the most broken creatures of DK2, doubled his health and upgraded his spell power. How the heck can you in good nature say your mod has any sense of creature balance?

    That's not even starting into the further balance issues, namely being that you ignore about half of the creatures entirely (it's a fact that it's impossible to properly balance anything without involving and considering everything else). You made the Goblin completely inferior to the Dwarf by a large margin, and the Dark Elf is completely and utterly outclassed by the Warlock now. I'm not even going into all the details because that wouldn't be necessary, but suffice to say at least half of all units are now even more useless than they were in DK2. You call that balance?

    So...neither of the two points you called are even remotely true. Your "DK1" mod still has none of the features that DK1 was most defined by (compared to DK2). And it's not going to have them either, unless you're going to hack the game to the point you can create new creatures and spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    To the rest of your post, why even bother with making insulting and rhetorical comments that don't even go a tenth of the way towards actually making a constructive point?
    First of all: the irony. Calling every comment you don't like "empty rhetoric" or variants thereof is completely meaningless. It will not solve anything, nor make the comments disappear, nor refute their points. It doesn't do anything constructive.

    Now, since you ask so nicely. Here's my constructive point. Your "DK1" patch idea is not going to work, never will, and is an exercise in futility. Just stop it.

    As a matter of fact, please do go back to actually fixing and improving the game like you used to do.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 20th, 2013 at 12:18.

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    Orc Dark_Omega MK2's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    I don't really understand what you mean by I "mislead the intentions of everyone here." If you meant I misread intentions, well I can't even read intentions on peoples' minds. I'm not a psychic.
    Exactly! You are not a psychic, You just nailed it perfectly, by that standard, you should not assume people are attacking your ideas or people in here don't like DK1.

    You are not a psychic. You should stop making assumptions then, instead take the cristicism in a more calm and open way. People critic this whole concept for a reason.

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    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Fix for Missing Dungeon Keeper 1 Features in Dungeon Keeper 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Do you mean that the warlock is a broken creature in DK2? I must have been misusing him. Can you tell me the secret of the warlock's broken-ness? Maybe it's the heal spell? I guess when he gets mauled by a black knight he makes a good distraction right?

    Or were you refering to a different creature?
    I was referring to the Vampire. I guess you didn't read Rex' post, which honestly doesn't even surprise me anymore at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "How the heck can you in good nature say your mod has any sense of creature balance?" Maybe has something to do with me actually playing and testing my mod in-game.
    Funny, because then you apparently missed the Dark Elf thing below. Clearly your tests have issues. I'd still like to know how the Goblin, Salamander, and Rogue in your patch compare to the other creatures, in the sense of creature balance. From what I can see, these are now just even more completely useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Dark Elf is outclassed by the warlock? Hapuga was telling me that the buffed dark elves and elven archers are so overpowered that I need to lower their damage by 2/5s. Do you disagree with that idea of his?
    First of all, thank you for proving my point about imbalance above.

    Second of all, I'm going by your patch notes up above, which say nothing about the Dark Elf. Clearly things can be different when you withhold the truth of all the changes in the patch notes. However, that still doesn't make it any better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Half of all units are now even more useless than they were in DK2?" Isn't "useless" a bit of a strong term? Even goblins are useful in very early
    game or just to throw in as cannon fodder (although beyond that they could be called useless).
    You're not the first to argue this. It's still wrong. Black Knights in vanilla DK2 way outclass Goblins even early game, or as cannon fodder. Your patch does little to change this. In fact, it's only worse, because you have more, easier to get creatures buffed to outclass the low-rate fodder even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Your "DK1" mod still has none of the features that DK1 was most defined by (compared to DK2)." You can think that if you want. Doesn't mean I agree with that.
    So you're saying that, to you, changing payment rates and buffing a few creatures defines DK1 more so than, say, inclusion of creatures like the Dragon or Orc, or more balanced and faster paced gameplay?

    I'll let you think whatever you want, but in that case, I think your opinion is ass-backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Calling every comment you don't like "empty rhetoric" or variants thereof is completely meaningless." Can you prove that every time a person makes a comment to me, 24 hours a day, I call it "empty rhetoric or variants thereof"?
    In this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast, to Rex View Post
    Did you have any actual substance or evidence for this rhetoric?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast, to Rex again View Post
    I'm not going to bother to respond to every rhetorical point you make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast, to Moth View Post
    why even bother with making insulting and rhetorical comments that don't even go a tenth of the way towards actually making a constructive point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast, to Skarok View Post
    I don't have patience for empty rhetoric.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast, to Skarok again View Post
    I like the game better this way and I'm sure there will be at least some people who <snip> will not waste my time with negative rhetoric.
    Here's five examples from your first response. Don't even start giving me bullshit about "every time, 24 hours a day" or any other intentional misreadings. At this point it's clear you're just trying to grasp at things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "Your "DK1" patch idea is not going to work, never will, and is an exercise in futility. Just stop it." Nope I don't think so, I don't agree with that.
    I'd love to see you prove me, or anyone else in this thread, otherwise. So far I'm not convinced.

    Also, just saying "No, I don't think so/I don't agree" is meaningless. You don't even bother backing your points anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    "As a matter of fact, please do go back to actually fixing and improving the game like you used to do." Ok, I will spend less time discussing and more time working on the game.
    I didn't say working on the game. I said fixing and improving the game, in the vein of GIM v0.29B and prior. If you'll actually do that, then I'll be happy.






    EDIT: Also, everything Skarok said below.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 20th, 2013 at 13:43.

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