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Thread: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

  
  1. #1
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    Default Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    From the survey results, it seems a small proportion of people have tried many fan-made campaigns. Why is that?

    are they not considered of high enough quality?
    with the shifting platform of KeeperFX, is it felt they no longer work?

    I assumed that given how old DK1 is, fans still around and playing >15 years later would have played all available campaigns many times over, and be looking for new ones. It seems that is not the case?

    Are most people only interested in the original 2 campaigns (DK1 & DD)? Because in truth, these were not quite finished when released, so it's not like they were perfect.

    The Good Campaign is the most popular campaign from the survey, yet there is a thread detailing how it's not playing very well. Sounds like it needs fixing, but who will do it?

    much food for thought,

    dayokay

    PS many thanks to everyone who participated in the survey

  2. #2
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    are they not considered of high enough quality?
    with the shifting platform of KeeperFX, is it felt they no longer work?
    I've never heard anything good about these campaigns, or the vast majority of levels on Mefisto's site. It's extremely difficult to play them all to know for certain, but the ones I have played do prove what I hear to be true. Also, a lot of those maps were made with the original game in mind, so it's only natural that even the fixing of bugs has the unfortunate effect of breaking the balance on these maps.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    I assumed that given how old DK1 is, fans still around and playing >15 years later would have played all available campaigns many times over, and be looking for new ones. It seems that is not the case?
    Not necessarily. I've played a variety of maps for DK1 and DK2 when I was younger, but I don't really have the time to do such anymore. Especially for a campaign or map which I do not even know I'll enjoy. Most DK maps are at least 30 minutes to an hour or more. Nothing's worse than playing a map for that long only to find you didn't even enjoy due to faults on the map design.

    This is why I do not think there should be a strong focus on level designing until we have quality level designers to actually back it, rather than people who do it simply because it's fun and they like DK. It doesn't do FX much good to have a bunch of low quality maps cluttering it and overshadowing good maps. Some people are turned away if they struggle to find a good and actually enjoyable map to play, which is something I cannot blame them for as finding a map shouldn't be that difficult.

    Perhaps a certain standard of quality should be set for the campaigns that are in FX by default. Campaigns that are well designed and balanced for the most part, being fun to play without any sort of ridiculous or extreme level of challenge. Other campaigns could still be downloaded separately, already ready to go. It would help reduce the clutter and make it easier for people to find maps they'll enjoy.

    This will cause it to take more time to add a campaign to FX as that campaign will have to be firmly playtested and reviewed beforehand, but I think that's the whole point to creating a quality campaign in the first place. The only real issue is that it'll cause some campaigns, specifically those not included in FX by default, to be overshadowed by the campaigns that are. This sounds fair as only quality campaigns would be in FX, however that's only until you realize that it makes it more difficult for any campaign to receive that proper review, even one with good potential. Perhaps there could be some kind of featured campaign for new releases just to grab people's attention?

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    Are most people only interested in the original 2 campaigns (DK1 & DD)? Because in truth, these were not quite finished when released, so it's not like they were perfect.
    The original maps had their own charm to it. I think the DD maps are the most inspiring for mapmakers in general. They're filled with interesting designs, despite all of their blatant flaws. Nostalgia could be another element. Most people would have already played them, as those are the official campaigns. They've had fun with the maps, and that's why they know they'll have fun playing it again. It's easier for them to stick with what they know rather than branching out to levels they're unfamiliar with, especially if they don't have much time on their hands. They have no reason to branch out if they hear only negative remarks about other campaigns. The overwhelming number of campaigns included in FX does not help this.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    PS many thanks to everyone who participated in the survey
    Where's my money?
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; February 1st, 2014 at 11:39.
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post

    Where's my money?
    A fair question - you can have 100% of the profit I make from this survey. I just hope it doesn't change your life too much! (I'm confident it won't!)

    I think 2 levels of campaign is a good idea. KeeperFX certified (somehow) being separate from optional uncertified campaigns. We could initiate a program to 'upgrade' the better campaigns. This would need, as you rightly point out, a lot of playtesting effort, and changes to ensure a good quality of playing experience. Once certified, we'd need to ensure the ongoing changes to KeeperFX didn't break anything.

    One survey respondent said to ditch the existing maps and write new campaigns. I do agree that new quality campaigns are needed (including a replayable hard version of the original), but it seems to me that abandoning some of the existing campaigns would be unwise. Some of them just need modifying to make them acceptable, and it'd be a shame to abandon them.

    I also think a 'certified' campaign would need to be of a certain size. Some have too few maps to be a campaign.

    dayo

  4. #4

    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I've never heard anything good about these campaigns, or the vast majority of levels on Mefisto's site. It's extremely difficult to play them all to know for certain, but the ones I have played do prove what I hear to be true. Also, a lot of those maps were made with the original game in mind, so it's only natural that even the fixing of bugs has the unfortunate effect of breaking the balance on these maps.

    [...]

    Perhaps a certain standard of quality should be set for the campaigns that are in FX by default. Campaigns that are well designed and balanced for the most part, being fun to play without any sort of ridiculous or extreme level of challenge. Other campaigns could still be downloaded separately, already ready to go. It would help reduce the clutter and make it easier for people to find maps they'll enjoy?
    I'm in the same boat you are. I've played DK many times over, often quitting for a long while and coming back again. I've mostly played the campaign, some skirmish maps and the DD a few times. I've never really bothered with the custom campaigns, sampled a little bid, although I might try some more in the future. My biggest obstacle is indeed that from what I hear most of them are of low quality and/or difficult. The new maps don't seem to offer what I'm looking for in DK: In a relaxing manner build up a dungeon, train creatures, and test the result against an opponent.

    I think I also prefer single maps over campaigns.

    I don't think kicking the custom campaigns all the way out is the way to proceed, but having a better separation is a good thing I think. Only have the campaigns/maps of highest quality should be adopted by KeeperFX, and those should be maintained. It would also be nice to provide a good way of keeping track of which ones you've completed and which ones you haven't, to provide a better sense of accomplishment. Basically, provide a nice way of playing separate maps.

    On top of that, a new menu can be created for 'user generated content', including campaigns and single maps. Many of the current maps/campaigns can be included there, and it should be easy add new content there by downloading (through the web, not through an interface provided by FX). And then also keep track of which maps have been successfully completed.

  5. #5
    Warlock
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    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Honestly, what would help new players is if the keeper.lubie site got a massive overhaul.

    Were I in charge of it, there would be a database that categorises maps by mapmaker, number of players, difficulty ranking (which would have to be categorised by playtesters), and you can just use an in-built search engine to select maps a la carte.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    Honestly, what would help new players is if the keeper.lubie site got a massive overhaul.

    Were I in charge of it, there would be a database that categorises maps by mapmaker, number of players, difficulty ranking (which would have to be categorised by playtesters), and you can just use an in-built search engine to select maps a la carte.
    You can't really say that since it is VERY easy to say what you would do vs actually doing it and maintaining such. It is easy to make it sound so simple when you aren't the one in charge of it all. Just the playtester part alone would be quite a bit of work since you would need at least one or preferably a few/several people that can play it repeatedly. And it isn't just merely having fun playing the map. It is seeing if there are any errors, suggestions that could make the map/s better, things that make the level too hard or too easy which in of itself is a very difficult thing to understand since people think differently. Some would find some things very easy while others find it not so. Hell hard and impossible alone would be difficult to tell apart. I remember a long time ago I had a friend make a map where an extremely strong party(I am talking level 10s, Samurai, Wizards, Giants and such) were already coming for you in the very start of the map and you had next to nothing at all, no gold, no pre dug out rooms, no starting creatures, no research, just 3 Imps all level 1 and a 3x3 Treasury to start with. You had to within an extremely short time secure enough resources, get room space dug out, secure the portal, and fortify all within the course of 2-3 minutes before they dug in and killed you, you also had to make sure you had enough funds to get several level 10 creatures or you would lose against that party. This is just the beginning of the map too, that isn't even including everything else. He said it was hard, while it was in-fact impossible to EVER do all that with nothing at all.(I suggested making the party go through a very winding path or give yourself at least a little time to get ready, or start off with some troops, or even start off with 1 Boulder, all that would have made it doable. He rejected it all, funny since he never beat it himself, said he wanted to make a hard campaign, give it to myself and a few friends, we all said it was dumb and impossible, and he never fixed it or continued with maps again.)

    What I am simply getting at is it isn't as easy as people would think. Getting all that set up, making QUALITY maps, having a lot of playtesting as well as coming to a conclusion on how to rate it would all take a lot of time and constant effort. Moreso since the average map usually takes from an hour to even several hours to beat. Just imagine having to playtest a map even 5 times and see it works properly and is as balanced or doable as possible when the map takes 1-5 hours to beat each time. Also how long the mapmaker needs to take to MAKE it to begin with, then constantly having to tweak it since you will rarely have a perfect map on your first time. And these are all people that have lives that have other things to do than just DK. It is a lot of work unless you half ass it and don't care about quality which is the problem. It is easy to make a crappy map and just release it without doing anything, pretty much anyone can do that. It is hard and time consuming to make a truly good map and have it tested to make sure it is good before releasing, and then STILL taking in advice, very few can pull that off.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Well, I finished Good Campaign(therefore my review) and KDK(not at the time of the survey). I haven´t tried all fan-made campaigns now but some of them. My impression is that some of them are a bit too difficult, others are too easy. There should be something with middle difficulty.
    TBH I´m not a fan of Ancient Keeper as it is too tedious IMHO so I played not further. Undead Keeper has an interesting idea but even the first level was a bit too tedious and frustrating for me. No offense but my opinion.
    My impression is that it is difficult to find a good balance and there are only two extremes - very easy levels with hogging or running over the enemy with a transfered creature or very difficult levels. Ok, maybe some campaigns are different.

    Another reason I haven´t played most of them yet is that I stumbled on KeeperFX only some months ago. I´m also one of the first DK players but I also played other games in the years(blasphemy ) and still do so.
    I think I will play more of the campaigns or try to improve some levels but at the moment I´m also busy with Name:  library2.gif
Views: 300
Size:  1,005 Bytes. After this I will have more time for playing DK and the new levels.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    The first thing that gets me about the fan made campaigns is the HORRIBLE voice acting. After that some of the messages that appear in game are horribly written. They try to be too much like the real thing and almost every sentence is some cheesy "Superbly done, Keeper" line. That is just an example. But most of them are written in bad english as well. With those welcoming me into the game it just makes me want to hit escape and exit almost instantly.

    The bad voice acting in war for the overworld drives me crazy too. (Not the main guy but the others)

  9. #9

    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    Quote Originally Posted by Powtreeman View Post
    The first thing that gets me about the fan made campaigns is the HORRIBLE voice acting. After that some of the messages that appear in game are horribly written. They try to be too much like the real thing and almost every sentence is some cheesy "Superbly done, Keeper" line. That is just an example. But most of them are written in bad english as well.
    The voice acting... yes, most times it is someone who tries to sound creepy with lowered tone by pitch shifting. For me it´s not a big deal, most times it sounds funny, of course not like professional voice acting which can´t be expected. Regarding the bad english, some of the map makers aren´t native speakers(I´m not, too) so I think we should be forgiving here. But yes, some of the texts aren´t imaginative.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Survey : Thoughts on the existing campaigns

    I admire those who've made mentor speeches - a very hard thing to do.

    I wonder how easy it would be to implement a splash screen after a player has chosen a campaign? This could have the background spiel, an explanation of the target audience (new, experienced etc), and a star rating perhaps, using a yet to be determined method of assigning a rank to each campaign?

    Dayo

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