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Thread: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

  
  1. #11
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    My god you're a negative lot! No-one thinks it's easy, but does that mean trying is pointless?
    I personally tend to recommend against what I consider either exercises in futility or projects doomed to fail. You may see it differently of course, but then, feel free to do whatever. I just see it as a futile waste of time or effort.

    You may especially feel free to prove me wrong and get everything together, of course.

    EDIT: Of course, to be worth it, you'd also have to get a sufficient amount of people to actually play it, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    "I have used KeeperFX for many different things. Playing fan campaigns never was one of them."

    Many different things?! Really?
    Things I have used KeeperFX for:

    • Replaying original campaign on 64-bit Windows 7
    • Playing Deeper Dungeons on 64-bit Windows 7
    • Playing multiplayer maps/skirmish mode
    • Creature modding
    • Mapmaking
    • Game mechanics research
    • Source code investigation


    Playing fan campaigns still isn't on that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    "Also, good luck even trying to manage a team of 16+ people working on maps with any level of consistency. "

    Those people expressed interest in the idea. Doesn't mean they would all be willing and/or able to help, even if it was logistically possible.
    Earlier on you told me this:

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    Also 16 people said they'd be willing to contribute. That's a pretty good start, but a lot more is needed admittedly.
    So how many people do you expect to contribute? More or less than 16?

    You said you need "a lot more" than 16 earlier on, but evidently you've changed your mind on that front.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    A way to track completion of custom maps - how might that be done?
    Don't DD and by extension KeeperFX already do this? Completed maps appear darkened on the menu.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; February 13th, 2014 at 15:17.

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  2. #12
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    @Mothrayas - thanks for turning up to a thread on a new joint campaign to inform us that (a) it's not possible, and (b) you don't play them. I won't respond point by point to your elaborate, pedantic, and frankly childish contribution,as there's no value in it. Suffice it to say, if a number of us did manage to generate a decent campaign together, we will credit you as being 'the wind beneath our wings'.

    @Hades - thanks. I'm thinking of starting a group here in keeperklan for those willing to give this a try. A campaign will not be easy, but I'm sure there are enough of us with a few maps each that we can use as our starting point.

    MGR makes the point regarding people capable of generating good maps. I see a collaboration as a way of enabling a number of people to become better at map creation; we can train each other.

    I also believe (though I have nothing quantitative to offer, it's just an impression) that KeepeFX AI has improved a lot recently, and that will improve the chances of making entertaining levels,

    dayo

  3. #13
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    @Mothrayas - thanks for turning up to a thread on a new joint campaign to inform us that (a) it's not possible, and (b) you don't play them. I won't respond point by point to your elaborate, pedantic, and frankly childish contribution,as there's no value in it. Suffice it to say, if a number of us did manage to generate a decent campaign together, we will credit you as being 'the wind beneath our wings'.
    Yeah, sorry for bothering to answer your survey, and to elaborate on my view on the survey topic in this thread which, btw, seems to be a majority opinion in the survey (it's still a fact that most people don't seem to play fan campaigns).

    If that's "childish" to you, next time I fill in a survey or post anything about it I'll just kiss your ass instead of provide anything actually useful for polling. That better for you?

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  4. #14
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    I was one of the people that will help to make a new campaign IF i have time. I created in the past some levels for my personal use with adikted, but as Mothrayas says: Why we should create a new campaign if most players dont play fan-made campaigns? Thats maybe a lose of time...

    KeeperFX needs more campaigns, i'm agree with that. But the problem is that maybe the levels will not be high quality and the campaign doesnt be good. I recommend first create some "beta" levels and here we can give our opinion of that level. After that we can start creating a campaign, because we know who makes good levels and who doesnt.

  5. #15
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    And what do you think about picking levels from the keeper.lubiki.pl database?

    This way you'd mostly need to test levels - testing is still easier than mapmaking.

    Then, levels which have good grades could be merged into a campaign, by adding story and changes required for consistency.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Well, I've nearly completed a level. Here's a hint: Expect Severe losses.

    BTW, how do you take a panorama shot of a level like on lubiki.pl?

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    And what do you think about picking levels from the keeper.lubiki.pl database?

    This way you'd mostly need to test levels - testing is still easier than mapmaking.

    Then, levels which have good grades could be merged into a campaign, by adding story and changes required for consistency.
    There are so many levels there. Somehow we'd need to filter down to 35 or 40, from which to get a campaign going. How many people have played a significant portion of them? I have only played the campaigns myself.

    It looks like there are some campaigns in there too - any of these worth trying to polish up?

  8. #18

    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Don't DD and by extension KeeperFX already do this? Completed maps appear darkened on the menu.
    Sort of yes. The free play levels are darkened, but is it permanent though? Could have sworn levels I completed before where bright red again. And it isn't tracked for campaigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    I also believe (though I have nothing quantitative to offer, it's just an impression) that KeepeFX AI has improved a lot recently, and that will improve the chances of making entertaining levels,
    There have been some changes to the AI yes, most importantly 1. Focus on training whenever gold is available and 2. Focus on getting gold - if needed by using workshop - when gold is not available making sure creatures don't leave angry.

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    And what do you think about picking levels from the keeper.lubiki.pl database?
    This way you'd mostly need to test levels - testing is still easier than mapmaking.
    Then, levels which have good grades could be merged into a campaign, by adding story and changes required for consistency.
    I'd really like that idea. If not converting them to a campaign, at the very least try to find 3 or 5 or 8 levels to be added as native KeeperFX maps. So finding the most fun levels out there, and perhaps improve them. If we're not careful we might have fun in the process.

  9. #19
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    I cannot pretend to even remotely understand the aggression towards Moth.

    Moth has pointed out a very important contradiction with the Poll results, which I then jumped on to prove that there may very well be something wrong with the survey regarding question 4 about the priority of new features and the survey as a whole, in that there seems to be a bias towards new campaigns as it comes up very frequently. Moth also shares views with others, especially myself, that have been openly expressed in this thread and others, regarding the issues with fan campaigns. If anything, I was the one who openly insulted what I'd consider to be the average level designer, which is the basis of most if not all the negativity towards fan campaigns.

    The attitude towards Moth seems quite frankly uncalled for. All he's doing is voicing his opinions on the matter, and even stating that those are his views. You should never shut out a person's voice because he says something you disagree with or do not want to hear, which is the only attitude I'm seeing now from you, dayokay. All that can ever accomplish is create a limitation on something or someone's potential. I will not tolerate any more of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    And what do you think about picking levels from the keeper.lubiki.pl database?

    This way you'd mostly need to test levels - testing is still easier than mapmaking.

    Then, levels which have good grades could be merged into a campaign, by adding story and changes required for consistency.
    I must say that I am very much against this idea. I've always been against the notion of performing changes, especially more major changes, to campaigns as that's pretty much messing with somebody's work. Taking a variety of other people's maps, throwing them together and calling it a campaign with some obscure story added to it in addition to at least considerable changes to each of the maps is something that I very much am against. That is pretty much taking credit for somebody else's work but adding in a few changes to make it less recognizable.

    What does it even accomplish? If these maps are so good to be featured in a campaign, why not feature them as solo maps, the way they were intended to be? If we have a level designer who is so capable that he can modify the maps to create a consistent feel throughout all of the 'campaign' levels without reducing their quality (a task that should not be undertaken lightly), then why can't he create his own campaign and produce actually new content? If he is not skilled enough, then how can he be trusted to not screw up these modified maps and make yet another low quality campaign?

    In the end, we're left right back where we started.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Sort of yes. The free play levels are darkened, but is it permanent though? Could have sworn levels I completed before where bright red again. And it isn't tracked for campaigns.
    I'm pretty sure it has to do with the save files somewhere. As soon as those things get overwritten, you lose all records of beating a map previously. I'm also sure it isn't too hard to add the same feature for campaigns.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; February 14th, 2014 at 00:53.
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    The survey reveals a number of people who have views that differ with yours. Don't panic - embrace the diversity. If you're right, as you no doubt always are, no campaign will result, and your smugness is enhanced, despite no additional campaigns. If you're wrong, a good campaign could result, and you'd have the option to play it. It's difficult to see a downside.

    At the risk of returning to the topic in hand, on reflection, I'm not sure a campaign compiled from single maps would be the best way to go. As Wyrmcast says, improving existing campaigns would probably be the best way. This does raise the issue of modifying others' work though, and that would need resolving.

    dayokay
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; February 14th, 2014 at 12:44. Reason: removed potential flame war content

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