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Thread: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

  
  1. #1
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    Default Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    From the survey, 16 of 42 people said they'd be willing to contribute to a community new campaign project. Here are the comments that were made regarding this (all of them, positive & negative).


    Multiple people making different levels for it would add unpredictability so people cant tell what they will be doing in the next levels.

    More campaigns definitely a good thing

    As long as there is a coherent theme which everyone has in mind while making levels.

    Levels probably wouldn't all have the same atmospheric feel when made by different people.

    I think it would be good to have multiple people giving idea on how the levels are made, since having multiple opinions and views is never bad, but there should only be 1 person making the levels or else things can get messy.

    Mentioned already. But also, I think the level of talent when it comes to most users is pretty low. They don't have a proper understanding or the experience to know what makes good level design and why. It's like a writer. Everyone wants to be one because it sounds fun and easy, but few have the talent to be above the rest.

    For a campaign, no not really I think. Maybe someone else can do texts or something if the level designer is not a great writer but the levels should be from one maker only.

    Thing is if you do it to quick it will suck, because there will be no work on it

    Definitely a good idea to have 2-3 level designers, but they need to criticize each other's levels and not just rush them out with no teamwork. They will also need dedicated testing from people who are NOT the level designers themselves

    It COULD work but only if the main developer and players weren't bothered by the inconsistencies in levels. Personally I think it's a bad idea as data could be jumbled and lead to a lack of feeling progression.

    to get people motivated, maybe. but also consistency is a problem so have to be managed also it is presumably hard to do good levels

    If you got together a bunch of mapmakers it might be a fun idea to get a sort of Chinese whispers type campaign in the works, with each subsequent mapmaker basing their map off the previous ones ending.

    community too hostile to be worth it

    Why quickly? Rushed things aren't always good. If people pay attention to the levels and gameplay, then sure, it's a good idea.



    it would seem worth pursuing, given the lack of enthusiasm regarding most campaigns. What do we think?

    dayo

  2. #2
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Who do we have that is actually capable of producing quality maps? Preferably someone who already has a record of such, so we already have something to reflect on their ability. This is going to be implemented into FX, after all, so it will be played by a large number of people. As mentioned before, there should be a standard.

    Though, for people working on a joint campaign, another concern of mine is the ability to properly communicate to make the campaign have consistent atmosphere and general feel for other things, like difficulty curve. There definitely needs to be some solid organization within a mapmaker group, otherwise it might be counterproductive to have more people. Maybe a lead level designer or something of that sort to decide on a final design of a map.

    Personally, if I were to get back into DK1 mapmaking, I'd probably see if I could contribute some quality maps or campaigns for FX, if reasonably possible, but I'd likely be working alone on the maps themselves, minus the possibility of playtesters of course. Funnily enough, as it's been so long since I made maps for Dk1, the only maps I have at present, to my knowledge at least, are maps I made as a child, so they aren't of the highest quality. Meaning, I actually don't have a very good record myself, at least for Dk1 mapmaking. My standards are apparently so high that even I am not allowed maps for FX, lol.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    I think you'd need a proper lead with some unified vision, and get some clear design ideas for each map before they are created. For each level here would be a theme/story, a goal, and more importantly a twist and a short description of the skills needed to master the level.
    With that done, individual mapmakers can make the levels themselves, and receive feedback from (play)testers.

  4. #4
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    it would seem worth pursuing, given the lack of enthusiasm regarding most campaigns. What do we think?
    "Poll results show most people don't play fan campaigns. The conclusion is we should bring a group of people together to spend a lot of mapmaking effort and organizational effort to create a fan campaign... which most people don't play."

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    "Poll results show most people don't play fan campaigns. The conclusion is we should bring a group of people together to spend a lot of mapmaking effort and organizational effort to create a fan campaign... which most people don't play."
    If we don't want campaigns, then KeeperFX has no purpose does it? I shouldn't need to point out that playing the game is the only purpose of KeeperFX. The survey also said that most people want a new editor, a contradiction I highlighted. Do they want an editor to feel the achievement of a program well written? Or to have it available to make new content?

    Also 16 people said they'd be willing to contribute. That's a pretty good start, but a lot more is needed admittedly. MGR's point regarding the need to set and maintain high quality output is the most important aspect of this, as the survey clearly shows not many people rate the current campaigns.

  6. #6
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    If we don't want campaigns, then KeeperFX has no purpose does it? I shouldn't need to point out that playing the game is the only purpose of KeeperFX.
    I have used KeeperFX for many different things. Playing fan campaigns never was one of them.

    Also, good luck even trying to manage a team of 16+ people working on maps with any level of consistency.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; February 9th, 2014 at 15:24.

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    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Oh yeah, I pretty much agree with Moth. I dislike the notion of putting a larger amount of effort towards making campaigns. I disagreed with that notion since before I filled out the survey, and still do. I'm not convinced we really have the capability to produce quality level design in any sort of efficient manner. There's a number of other points I feel I should make.

    While yes, most people don't play the current campaigns, I think this is voiced pretty well as to why. Frankly, they're not all that good, or they're simply decent. They are made worse, however, with the implementing of DL's patch as that changes the balance of the maps, altering them in a way the creators did not intend. I recall mentioning before that if I ever completed my Dk1 patch, I wouldn't want it implemented in any existing campaign for similar reasons. This, and additional bug fixes, causes some maps to really break. What is the result? People who have the time to play will often complain about the maps, giving negative feedback. As a result, those who do not have much time to play are then discouraged, resulting in what we have right now.

    As to why the desire for a new level editor exists, well, this is something that I feel needs proper context before being taken into consideration. As a raw statistic, sure, it may seem conflicting. However, on that survey, what other options are there? There are a total of six options, but three of them are essentially driven towards the same thing, which is an expansion or improvement on levels (not necessarily both). These involve a literal desire for New Campaigns, a desire for an updated Level Editor, and a Creature Editor. That's half the list.

    Alternatively, there's Multiplayer, Updated Graphics, and Translation of in-game texts, three very different things. The latter two don't seem that high in value, honestly. Updated Graphics is a minor thing, and translation of in-game texts, well almost the same can be said. The biggest thing here is Multiplayer, something that I personally feel should be at the top of this list.

    The problem here is that the question, simply due to the available options, is more geared towards the notion of level design. With half the options being related to level design, in addition each of these options possessing multiple reasons as to why they could be chosen and thus attracting different people, it is no kidding that it got such a high score.

    I think I've made it pretty clear that I do not favor the notion of moving towards a higher quantity of campaigns, yet despite that, I voted an updated Level Editor to be second. Why, then? Frankly, there's not much competition. Updated Graphics is a ridiculous notion to me to rate highly, translation of in-game texts I was unsure about, new campaigns I already mentioned is a bad idea, and an updated Creature Editor should always be second to an updated Level Editor in my opinion. So that really leaves me with two options for my highest two votes. Multiplayer, and an updated Level Editor. Multiplayer is by far more important to me on this list, so that got my highest vote. Then that leaves an Updated Level Editor with my second highest vote, something I'm not exactly happy about.

    I don't even think Multiplayer should be the highest priority on FX. I actually wanted to rate bug fixing and establishing stability as my highest point. That, to me, is the whole point of FX, to enable playability for DK1. I tried DK1 from GOG recently, but it turns out to be laggy as crap, practically makes the game unplayable by reducing any enjoyment factor that could be gained from the experience, so really that leaves FX. Yet, I also mentioned in the survey that every time I try booting that up, there is some bug or issue that prevents me from properly playing, so naturally I feel that should be the highest priority. But, sadly, that option is not on the survey.

    If we rated each option from one to ten on a level of individual importance rather than putting them all in the order of importance, I'm sure the survey would turn out quite differently for that question.
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I think I've made it pretty clear that I do not favor the notion of moving towards a higher quantity of campaigns, yet despite that, I voted an updated Level Editor to be second. Why, then? Frankly, there's not much competition. Updated Graphics is a ridiculous notion to me to rate highly, translation of in-game texts I was unsure about, new campaigns I already mentioned is a bad idea, and an updated Creature Editor should always be second to an updated Level Editor in my opinion. So that really leaves me with two options for my highest two votes. Multiplayer, and an updated Level Editor. Multiplayer is by far more important to me on this list, so that got my highest vote. Then that leaves an Updated Level Editor with my second highest vote, something I'm not exactly happy about.
    Same for me actually. I would like updated graphics in the sense of allowing higher resolutions and providing a GUI to match, but don't find this really important. I don't think DK is really designed around multiplayer and fear the community isn't there anyway, so this would be wasted effort, leaving level editor as a top choice.
    New campaigns really are far less important to me as high quality custom maps and a way to track completion of these.
    But for me the top 3 would actually be: Stability/fixes, improved Computer player, improved creature/imp AI.

    Right now a lot of the content that is there cannot be optimally enjoyed.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    My god you're a negative lot! No-one thinks it's easy, but does that mean trying is pointless?

    "I have used KeeperFX for many different things. Playing fan campaigns never was one of them."

    Many different things?! Really? If KeeperFX is the swiss army knife of software, I confess I haven't spotted that before.

    "Also, good luck even trying to manage a team of 16+ people working on maps with any level of consistency. "

    Those people expressed interest in the idea. Doesn't mean they would all be willing and/or able to help, even if it was logistically possible.

    It does seem, if you respondents are representative, that there is a significant role for single custom maps, distinct from campaigns? I hadn't thought this was a significant demand. I guess it's certainly possible that some campaigns are padded out with lower quality maps, and I can see that putting more effort into making one very high quality map could be advantageous. Last time I played a Deeper Dungeon map from this menu option, I noticed the in-game texts were from another campaign. Isn't there an issue regarding which configs get used for custom maps? I asked Mefisto for the ability to use custom configs in single maps, but he doesn't plan to do this, so they would need to use vanilla configs (whatever that means now).

    A way to track completion of custom maps - how might that be done?

  10. #10
    Warlock
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    Default Re: Survey : Joint Generation of a new campaign

    I have some concepts down for a new Dungeon Keeper map. If anyone is interested in using them for a campaign, PM me.

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