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Thread: KeeperFX for DK 2

  
  1. #21
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I remember Skarok trying something similar, but he never finished modifying the rooms or stopped for some reason, I don't quite remember. I think it might be an idea worth pursuing, if just to make things a little dimmer.
    I actually finished that. The only real problem was that I hadn't modified the lighting stats for the rooms, which I now have. So everything is working perfectly.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  2. #22
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    The levels themselves are also more about slowly but surely pushing further into enemy territory, with not as much fireworks. Dungeon management has a similar curve.
    That is one of the issues I have with vanilla DK2 levels, which goes back to a lot of the game being easier by design. The game doesn't really put much pressure on you. Level 10 is the only map that did that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    I actually finished that. The only real problem was that I hadn't modified the lighting stats for the rooms, which I now have. So everything is working perfectly.
    Is that so? Do you mind sharing the values you used?
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I prefer DK1 as well, but it does leave a lot of room for improvement. DK2 is bad in most areas, but it did address some of the issues with the original. Making a best of both worlds game would be great, but it need some dedicated developers.

    That's why there are some of the DK inspired games under development right now of course, and even there you see that it's not as simple. I've had a look behind the curtain there a while ago, and those are certainly not guaranteed successful projects (talking about resulting in a fun game, not even about profit). Besides developers you need a proper design, a good producer and if possible some project management.

    But, if somebody were to get it done, I would certainly play a DK2 that doesn't look as ugly, has a cast of creatures more resembling DK1 than DK2, where it is actually fun to build a dungeon and some better pacing.
    But that is just your opinion due to liking DK1 over 2. Personally I liked how most creatures are new in DK2, otherwise it would have been boring seeing the same things. And if a Dk3/Wfto(Don't care if its not technically DK3, it really is if it ever comes out, or as close as one will be) I expect newer creatures as well. Also how is DK2 ugly? It was graphically better than DK1 in EVERY way. I don't get the actually fun to build a dungeon part either since it is the same thing. The only difference is that you start with all your spells and rooms which is easily remedied by making them research.

    Different opinions is fine, it just sounds like your speaking through nostalgia a little too much.

    Also best of both worlds will NEVER happen, I remember Rex saying something about such. And it summed up to everyone has different views. So how can you make something that is the "best" of both when "best" is different per person? You would have to get input from ONLY people that like both games equally and IGNORE the ones that like one over the other, even then it would fail. You like DK1 over 2. I love both games but DK2 holds a better place in my mind. In the end the game would fail ages before it truly started.

  4. #24
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    Also how is DK2 ugly? It was graphically better than DK1 in EVERY way.
    One detail I'd like to point out is something I noticed as a child, an undeniable fact really but with DK1, the terrain was much better. In addition to a variety of different textures for the layout of the land, there were more creative wall designs. Gold and Gems sparkled as well.

    To be honest, I'm not exactly sure why that wasn't implemented into DK2, and I'm saying this now as more of a legit question rather than a piece of criticism. I've been led to believe that a lot of DK2 was designed in a way to specifically appeal to a more casual crowd and to try and tap in on the success of its predecessor, while pretty much rushing the game out. So I have to wonder why there wasn't an effort to add variety or some better details in the normal wall designs, as that would surely make the game look incredibly more appealing. Maybe they thought it wouldn't have mattered as much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    Also best of both worlds will NEVER happen, I remember Rex saying something about such. And it summed up to everyone has different views.
    I'm incredibly skeptical about any fan project that even suggests that it's trying to be a perfected sequel, for the same reasons. I mentioned it before on one project thread where everyone essentially hops on and disagrees with each other because they all have their own ideas on what is the perfect DK game, some more radical than others, and they see other people's ideas as a threat, resulting in a failed project.

    The only thing I think can be a best of both worlds is the general speed of the battles, but that again goes back down to my opinion. DK1 by default has a lot more chaos, more units to control, and colors and crazy shit flying everywhere in its bigger battles, it can feel pretty overwhelming. DK2 by default is pretty much the opposite, I'd actually call it very uninvolved in fights as a negative point. But I think that's related to other facts as there's just not that much to do in a fight unless you're defensive. There's pretty much only Heal when you're offensive, and there's not much strategy to casting it either as its so cheap and powerful.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    One detail I'd like to point out is something I noticed as a child, an undeniable fact really but with DK1, the terrain was much better. In addition to a variety of different textures for the layout of the land, there were more creative wall designs. Gold and Gems sparkled as well.

    To be honest, I'm not exactly sure why that wasn't implemented into DK2, and I'm saying this now as more of a legit question rather than a piece of criticism. I've been led to believe that a lot of DK2 was designed in a way to specifically appeal to a more casual crowd and to try and tap in on the success of its predecessor, while pretty much rushing the game out. So I have to wonder why there wasn't an effort to add variety or some better details in the normal wall designs, as that would surely make the game look incredibly more appealing. Maybe they thought it wouldn't have mattered as much?
    I agree yeah the terrain would be nice, I like how there was normal and snow versions in DK1(Even though snow didn't make sense, your underground) So they didn't bother me much. The walls look nicer which would have been nice to add in. I personally like DK2 gold and gems better than DK1, in DK1 it looked like the entire thing was a solid block of gold while 2 looked like it had pieces in rock. Same for gems, 1 it was a giant purple rock, 2 it had actual gems in a chunk of rock. Although the shiny effect would have been nice, but isn't too big a deal for me either.

    My guess is its just small stuff and didn't really matter too much.

  6. #26

    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji View Post
    But that is just your opinion due to liking DK1 over 2. Personally I liked how most creatures are new in DK2, otherwise it would have been boring seeing the same things. And if a Dk3/Wfto(Don't care if its not technically DK3, it really is if it ever comes out, or as close as one will be) I expect newer creatures as well. Also how is DK2 ugly? It was graphically better than DK1 in EVERY way. I don't get the actually fun to build a dungeon part either since it is the same thing. The only difference is that you start with all your spells and rooms which is easily remedied by making them research.

    Different opinions is fine, it just sounds like your speaking through nostalgia a little too much.

    Also best of both worlds will NEVER happen, I remember Rex saying something about such. And it summed up to everyone has different views. So how can you make something that is the "best" of both when "best" is different per person? You would have to get input from ONLY people that like both games equally and IGNORE the ones that like one over the other, even then it would fail. You like DK1 over 2. I love both games but DK2 holds a better place in my mind. In the end the game would fail ages before it truly started.
    Yes, I prefer two over one, but that isn't nostalgia. DK2 is almost as old as DK1 and I played both. I know there are people who prefer two over one, and as both games have quite a different feel I understand that. I think I can argue that DK2 is objectively the worse one, but sure feel free to disagree with me and/or my argumentation.

    When I said for a new game, I'd like a cast of creatures more like DK1, I don't mean the same creatures, but just as imaginative and diverse. Not only had DK1 more creatures and more heroes, they where also a lot more diverse. In DK2 a lot more of the creatures resembled humans, and you had many similar creatures/heroes (like elf - dark elf). Which also - mostly due to the reduced amount of skills/spells in the sequel - played exactly the same. In 2 the wizard and warlock where almost the same creature, in DK1 they differed a lot more. Let's not even mention the (Dark) Knight.

    As for looks, I don't think DK2 aged very well, like most of the games from the early 3D period. Just like Super Nintendo games look better today then PS1/N64 games. Doesn't matter though, if a new game where to be created with today's technology, it would look quite different.

    Building a dungeon is certainly not the same thing, in both games you build rooms with the same name, but the feel of it is completely different. My post is long enough, so I won't go fully into it, but there's a difference in how you select where to build rooms, there's a difference in actually building the room, the sounds of placement, the speed of dirt getting dug out, the design of the space around you to build, you need to layout if differently because e.g. rivalries work completely different and the room sizes you need differ.

    And I agree with you there most likely won't be a best of both worlds game, that was basically what I said: I don't think it is a good idea to try and make one, but if somebody would surprise me and pull it off, I would love to play it. I do disagree that everybody has different opinions - sure you'll never get consensus, but I think most people can agree on a lot of positives and negatives for both DK games, people who prefer 1 or 2 alike.
    I for instance prefer the workshop system in DK2, like the idea of a combat pit, like it included custom maps and liked 'my pet dungeon' and introducing mana for spells based on the size of your dungeon. DK was an acclaimed game, but left a lot of room for improvement. DK2 did build upon the first game, but also did a few things wrong.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Yes, I prefer two over one, but that isn't nostalgia. DK2 is almost as old as DK1 and I played both. I know there are people who prefer two over one, and as both games have quite a different feel I understand that. I think I can argue that DK2 is objectively the worse one, but sure feel free to disagree with me and/or my argumentation.

    When I said for a new game, I'd like a cast of creatures more like DK1, I don't mean the same creatures, but just as imaginative and diverse. Not only had DK1 more creatures and more heroes, they where also a lot more diverse. In DK2 a lot more of the creatures resembled humans, and you had many similar creatures/heroes (like elf - dark elf). Which also - mostly due to the reduced amount of skills/spells in the sequel - played exactly the same. In 2 the wizard and warlock where almost the same creature, in DK1 they differed a lot more. Let's not even mention the (Dark) Knight.

    As for looks, I don't think DK2 aged very well, like most of the games from the early 3D period. Just like Super Nintendo games look better today then PS1/N64 games. Doesn't matter though, if a new game where to be created with today's technology, it would look quite different.

    Building a dungeon is certainly not the same thing, in both games you build rooms with the same name, but the feel of it is completely different. My post is long enough, so I won't go fully into it, but there's a difference in how you select where to build rooms, there's a difference in actually building the room, the sounds of placement, the speed of dirt getting dug out, the design of the space around you to build, you need to layout if differently because e.g. rivalries work completely different and the room sizes you need differ.

    And I agree with you there most likely won't be a best of both worlds game, that was basically what I said: I don't think it is a good idea to try and make one, but if somebody would surprise me and pull it off, I would love to play it. I do disagree that everybody has different opinions - sure you'll never get consensus, but I think most people can agree on a lot of positives and negatives for both DK games, people who prefer 1 or 2 alike.
    I for instance prefer the workshop system in DK2, like the idea of a combat pit, like it included custom maps and liked 'my pet dungeon' and introducing mana for spells based on the size of your dungeon. DK was an acclaimed game, but left a lot of room for improvement. DK2 did build upon the first game, but also did a few things wrong.
    I see what you mean. I agree with ya. They both had their ups and downs. Personally what I find would be a great DK is if there was a mix of the DK2 combat and humor (I mean combat as in the no diceroll thing, you swing, you hit, also how more than 4 creatures could hit another, you could have as many as could fit around the creature attacking it) And humor was better in DK2. I would then take the darkness and evilness out of Dk1. You had the same story more or less but I loved hearing on what happened before and after you destroyed a land in DK1. You also saw a lot more personality out of the creatures with all their like/dislike/hate jobs and their little dances. DK2 fell flat on their face with that, just having like or not do for all creatures.

  8. #28
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Is that so? Do you mind sharing the values you used?
    I don't quite remember what I all changed, but if you compare the values of this map with a vanilla one you should be able to figure it out yourself. Alternatively you can just copy over the globals and variables. One think I still know of was that I changed the lighting and torchlight variables in the level variables and the room and terrain lights.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  9. #29
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Skarok View Post
    I don't quite remember what I all changed, but if you compare the values of this map with a vanilla one you should be able to figure it out yourself. Alternatively you can just copy over the globals and variables. One think I still know of was that I changed the lighting and torchlight variables in the level variables and the room and terrain lights.
    I've looked through them all. The Torch Light stats in all rooms is completely untouched, save for one exception, and the Terrain Lights are universally altered to the same value. There's some Level Variable Changes as mentioned, and some terrain changes, but not too much.

    In Level Variables, the Default Torch Light *color* is 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down. The Intensity and Radius values are pretty much at the very bottom of the list.

    Skarok Updated Color Values


    I'm currently playing around with the values myself to see if I can find something I like, even if it's more... radical in difference. I'm aiming to darken Impenetrable Rock even more to make it closer to the Dk1 variant. I like it because it makes a more aesthetic difference when building a room with reinforced walls or impenetrable rock. I'm also looking to lower the torch settings some for the rooms as that seems to be one of the more major factors to brightening up the dungeon. One notable difference is I'm adding ambient light to the Hero Gates, as I feel those should be brighter. Makes the 2x2 variant actually visible instead of being a completely dark room.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; February 16th, 2014 at 20:58.
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  10. #30
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: KeeperFX for DK 2

    Here are my color modifications. I used vanilla Level 20 for testing. I included Color Test 2, which contains the vanilla stats, for comparative purposes. Be sure to look around the map to see how the different stats really effects things, like the tunnels to the northwest with Reinforced Walls and with Impenetrable Rock. I'm not sure if the Impenetrable Rock is too dark, but it's certainly quite different.

    I'll share the exact change of stats at another time.

    Color Tests.zip
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