Sacrificing prisoners

[Shonji]

I don't think you really paid any attention to what I said either. Sure it's much easier to take care of the Reapers if you abuse that hand-payment ripoff bug but what's your point?

Also sometimes if you're slapping creatures or imps and you have Reapers, you will eventually accidentally slap one of the Reapers because he will run in front of one of the other creatures, just a fact.

Not a joke to argue that Reapers are not "OP" and hard to manage, an obvious fact that Reapers are not really all as great as some people have exaggerated them as being. The only joke here is your implication that a Reaper can beat the avatar, I'm pretty sure that is impossible unless something is very wrong with the latest version of KeeperFX.

No offense but I think it is the other way around. I didn't even include the hand payment thing. Since most times when I do even use them I only make 1 or 2 and it isn't hard to pay them normally. Personally I am too lazy to bother myself to get ready to pay them by hand since I am doing more important things then trying to catch a fast moving Reaper to save some money. And I only get them if I have access to Gems, otherwise it is not worth it unless its a short map.

Maybe it is just me, but I never had an encounter of slapping something on accident, I mean when the creature lights up when you scroll over them, that kind of gives it away what your looking at. I would suggest not spamming the slap button to whoever suffers this. Besides, even if you slap a Reaper it isn't the end of the world, if it is fully happy, it won't get mad, and even if it gets mad, it still isn't the end of the world. You can easily just pick him up and throw him in the Temple and he will calm down fast, or just drop him in the Treasury and give him a gift and all is better. He only goes crazy if you just let him stand still for like 5 seconds. Which is your own fault if your looking at him and do nothing.

I am actually surprised how you think people overexaggerate them when it isn't surprising at all seeing a single Reaper being able to beat down several creatures on its own easily. If you made a map where the enemy and you can get teh same creatures(Mistress and Bile Demon to name the important ones) But enemy got 20-25 creatures while you got only 10 BUT you could get a REaper or 2. Guess who is going to win? The one with Reapers since even at such odds they will tear through most creatures even at 10 in a few swipes.

Hell in some Deeper Dungeons a level 10 Reaper take out an entire Lord's party of all 10s by himself. Your talking a level 10 Knight, and usually like 2-5 others that are 10 and he can usually win or almost kill them all. And the Knight is meant to be the end of level boss.

Never said he can beat the Avatar but just look at Rex talking about their stats and they are pratically identical save the Avatar having another half as much health at base level and having some magic. So in your eyes the Reaper isn't OP even though he is almost on par with the Final Boss in the game? And yet if an Avatar is a unit to get it is too OP?

I mean your are free to think he is a good unit since he is, but it is hard to dispute him not being overpowered when this is a creature that is almost on par with the Avatar and you can easily get many of them on most maps.

[Shonji]

1.- Ok, i agree with you, i never make more than 3 or 4 reapers, except in Mistle. As I NO skip they payday, they very expensive wage makes the reapers a difficult creature to mantain and a OVERVALUATED creature.
2.- Im agree with you again. I remember the first time i got a reaper. I put him to train with my others creatures, no problem i said. 5 min later the mentor says me "one of your creatures is angry", was the reaper. And before i had time to think he was killing everything that moves! So yes, to new players control and mantain the reaper happy could be a complete challenge.
3.- I dont skip creatures payday, as it is more like a bug. And if you never makes more than 3 reapers i dont think that could be a problem.
4.- If you slap a reaper you have around 10 seg to give him money or put him in the temple for calm down him before becomes psycho and kills everything.

A reaper would NEVER BE COMPARED TO THE AVATAR. The avatar has much more spells than the reaper, making him better than the reaper. A Reaper could never kill an avatar

The micromanage part didn't mean the pay by hand, I meant actually micromanaging him, which turns out to be throw him in training room, then throw into Guard Room or Temple.

And reread what I said at the end, it is the same as what I just said to Wyrm. I didn't say it can beat the Avatar, you would need 3 to kill it, 2 if your lucky on hits. I said it is practically IDENTICAL to him statwise, they have the same stats pretty much, save the Avatar has a lot more health. And the spells really don't help too much save the Heal spell. The point I was trying to make was how the Avatar is the final boss, the strongest unit in the game and yet you can easily spam a unit that is almost on par with it. Does that not sound overpowered? The Reaper should be a special 1 of a kind or off limits in most maps.

[Ecarus]

The micromanage part didn't mean the pay by hand, I meant actually micromanaging him, which turns out to be throw him in training room, then throw into Guard Room or Temple.

And reread what I said at the end, it is the same as what I just said to Wyrm. I didn't say it can beat the Avatar, you would need 3 to kill it, 2 if your lucky on hits. I said it is practically IDENTICAL to him statwise, they have the same stats pretty much, save the Avatar has a lot more health. And the spells really don't help too much save the Heal spell. The point I was trying to make was how the Avatar is the final boss, the strongest unit in the game and yet you can easily spam a unit that is almost on par with it. Does that not sound overpowered? The Reaper should be a special 1 of a kind or off limits in most maps.

I Dont Think 2 or 3 Reapers can kill an Avatar (i will test this), because I have done some test in the past and ever for 2 Avatars lvl10 is difficult to kill 1 single Avatar lvl10. Is mainly because of his spells and his so high health, the thing that diferences the Avatar from the Reaper is that the Avatar can freeze, can heal himself with heal and drain, can punches his foes with WOP (which im sure that has to make damage and due to a bug it only punches the enemies), protect, etc. While a lvl10 Reaper only has Speed (is ok), Slow (doesnt make so sence).

[Shonji]

I Dont Think 2 or 3 Reapers can kill an Avatar (i will test this), because I have done some test in the past and ever for 2 Avatars lvl10 is difficult to kill 1 single Avatar lvl10. Is mainly because of his spells and his so high health, the thing that diferences the Avatar from the Reaper is that the Avatar can freeze, can heal himself with heal and drain, can punches his foes with WOP (which im sure that has to make damage and due to a bug it only punches the enemies), protect, etc. While a lvl10 Reaper only has Speed (is ok), Slow (doesnt make so sence).

They can, everytime I fought the Avatar I have used Reapers, and often the 2 I get in the map are enough if they are lucky and get hits all the time. His freeze is annoying at best, his heal is all he got going for him besides his health. Drain does jack shit, WOP doesn't even do anything, and he hits just as hard as Reaper, protect does something. But you underestimate Speed, Speed and very high dex allows Reaper to hit fast and often. I can safely say that 2 or no doubt 3 will win. Reason Avatar wins is his insane health, but add in more than 1 Reaper and it is more or less on par.

[Ecarus]

They can, everytime I fought the Avatar I have used Reapers, and often the 2 I get in the map are enough if they are lucky and get hits all the time. His freeze is annoying at best, his heal is all he got going for him besides his health. Drain does jack shit, WOP doesn't even do anything, and he hits just as hard as Reaper, protect does something. But you underestimate Speed, Speed and very high dex allows Reaper to hit fast and often. I can safely say that 2 or no doubt 3 will win. Reason Avatar wins is his insane health, but add in more than 1 Reaper and it is more or less on par.

After some test with 2 Reapers lvl10 and 1 Avatar lvl10, I conclude:

1.- Without Keeper's Help. Avatar Wins, But loses about 1/4 of his health.

2.- Only with protection. Avatar wins, but loses about 1/3 of his health.

3.- With constant healing and protection. Reapers wins and both survive. But that is if you have enough money to neutralice avatar's damage.

[Shonji]

After some test with 2 Reapers lvl10 and 1 Avatar lvl10, I conclude:

1.- Without Keeper's Help. Avatar Wins, But loses about 1/4 of his health.

2.- Only with protection. Avatar wins, but loses about 1/3 of his health.

3.- With constant healing and protection. Reapers wins and both survive. But that is if you have enough money to neutralice avatar's damage.

I find that hard to believe. Only 1/4 his health? I have seen them deal massive damage to the Avatar duo, like leaving him down to just 2 petals to even dead. And with 3 they always win. All I can say is your Reapers must have been the unfortunate ones and probability wasn't on their side for them to miss so much. I am not too surprised about them losing since it can happen, I don't doubt that, but to deal so little to him is the part I can't believe.

I would say I may have been lucky but I am talking fighting the Avatar easily 10+ times that way, and most of it usually ending with the 2 dealing massive to almost fatal damage every time, so I can't think it was just luck all those times.


Regardless I still stand by my view of Reaper being too OP and back on topic, I think YourMaster is over-reacting, no offense. I don't see the sacrifice method being any different then converting. I see it as just as good a choice of what you should be able to do. But this is your view so you are free to make maps where you are not allowed access to the Temple or Prison if you dislike that idea.

[YourMaster]

I think YourMaster is over-reacting, no offense. I don't see the sacrifice method being any different then converting. I see it as just as good a choice of what you should be able to do. But this is your view so you are free to make maps where you are not allowed access to the Temple or Prison if you dislike that idea.

No overreaction here, I'm not raging behind my keyboard and this isn't even a change request... I said I kinda dislike it as I feels a bit like cheating to me, similar to being able hand pay creatures, and started a topic to see how other people felt. And I got some impressions, which is fine.

[gator]

How can a mechanic that's equally available to all players possibly be overpowered?

[YourMaster]

How can a mechanic that's equally available to all players possibly be overpowered?

Well, for one, sacrificing prisoners is NOT something the computer players do.

But beyond that, mechanics can be overpowered compared to other mechanics. It makes OTHER mechanics feel useless and gives the players fewer valid options to choose from and have fun with. Many old maps in Dungeon Keeper are no fun because of how powerful converting units is, any hero-fortress map just has the player convert the first set of heroes and then the next room of heroes is just end up getting tortured without any challenge, a repeated slog until you win with 240 high level heroes in your army.

[gator]

Well, for one, sacrificing prisoners is NOT something the computer players do.

But beyond that, mechanics can be overpowered compared to other mechanics. It makes OTHER mechanics feel useless and gives the players fewer valid options to choose from and have fun with. Many old maps in Dungeon Keeper are no fun because of how powerful converting units is, any hero-fortress map just has the player convert the first set of heroes and then the next room of heroes is just end up getting tortured without any challenge, a repeated slog until you win with 240 high level heroes in your army.

If that tactic isn't fun for you, it seems like you should choose to use different tactics