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Thread: Questions about the reversal of stuff

  
  1. #11
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    In my patch, units remain the same: archers and barbarians, but instead of being level 2 or 3, they're level 5. I made a loop that continuously adds them in the hero dungeon heart until there's 32 archers on the level, so then it stops.
    That still seems like a very hackish solution to solve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I know, I know. But if that would have been correctly scripted, perhaps that would have been like that in the original game, which isn't the case for now.
    If it were 'correctly' scripted, I'd wager it would have been caught in QA and changed before release.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    And this is why I'm still waiting for suggestions. Should I create only a few parties? Should I only spawn the final party? Anything is possible. Since we're close to the final level, that you can attract tons of minions from the pool, that you can also imprison and torture powerful heroes, I'd see it as a good idea to have something massive at the end of that level so that our big army is for something, just not for a few pathetic heroes. That's my point of view, but I can understand it's not the case for everyone.
    I think instead of the masses of level 2-3 creatures, the stage should just spawn a few strong parties. I'm thinking like level 7-9 range Archers, Barbarians, etc. This makes more sense with the gradual buildup of hero unit levels.

    Also, spawning the parties at the Dungeon Heart should be done at a later point anyway. If they spawn in the Dungeon Heart room long before you actually reach there (and the doors are still locked) they're just free Lightning fodder. At least for the Lord of the Land party, I think they shouldn't enter until you actually reach the Dungeon Heart. The archers & barbarians party could come earlier, but not too soon that they're just stuck wandering around the Dungeon Heart.

    And whatever you do, seriously don't do infinite loops, or loops without a definite ending point, ever. Silly constructs like that are only acceptable for fan works.

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  2. #12
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    I don't EVER recall getting Samurai from the creature pool in Mistle.

    BTW, I'm working on a revised main campaign (so it is MUCH harder), and I'm wondering what to do for Mirthshire and Mistle and Blaise End.

  3. #13
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    I don't EVER recall getting Samurai from the creature pool in Mistle.

    BTW, I'm working on a revised main campaign (so it is MUCH harder), and I'm wondering what to do for Mirthshire and Mistle and Blaise End.
    I personally feel removing Lightning in Mirthshire will make it vastly easier, often I can get a part of the map revealed due to the Tunnelers and then just use the spell to kill off all the Heroes and win.

    For Mistle I think it could be more interesting if the enemy Keeper was aggressive instead of hiding in the corner of the map. Like make it so if he kills the Lord instead of you and claims that Hero fortress, you lose. So you can't take your time.

    For Blaise I can't really think of how to make it harder. I find the level more of a nuisance than difficult due to too many creatures. My guess is remove the use of lava trap so you can't hole yourself in once you break out into the world.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    I don't EVER recall getting Samurai from the creature pool in Mistle.

    BTW, I'm working on a revised main campaign (so it is MUCH harder), and I'm wondering what to do for Mirthshire and Mistle and Blaise End.
    Yeah, cause that never worked but even if it did,... it would be if you'd loose enough creatures to attract them from the portal again, and level 19 is the easiest level past level 10 so that will never happen. I do think though this is something to be fixed, it clearly states this in the message, and I don't think it has much effect on the difficulty of the level, because once you've claimed your first samurai you're home free anyway.

  5. #15
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Yeah, cause that never worked but even if it did,... it would be if you'd loose enough creatures to attract them from the portal again, and level 19 is the easiest level past level 10 so that will never happen. I do think though this is something to be fixed, it clearly states this in the message, and I don't think it has much effect on the difficulty of the level, because once you've claimed your first samurai you're home free anyway.
    I agree, since your going to either convert all the samurai anyways, or scavenge them away. And like Master also said, this level is ridiculously easy for being 1 before the final level. I just feel if you allow Samurai from portal, you need to buff the shit out of the level as well.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    That still seems like a very hackish solution to solve it.

    I think instead of the masses of level 2-3 creatures, the stage should just spawn a few strong parties. I'm thinking like level 7-9 range Archers, Barbarians, etc. This makes more sense with the gradual buildup of hero unit levels.

    Also, spawning the parties at the Dungeon Heart should be done at a later point anyway. If they spawn in the Dungeon Heart room long before you actually reach there (and the doors are still locked) they're just free Lightning fodder. At least for the Lord of the Land party, I think they shouldn't enter until you actually reach the Dungeon Heart. The archers & barbarians party could come earlier, but not too soon that they're just stuck wandering around the Dungeon Heart.

    And whatever you do, seriously don't do infinite loops, or loops without a definite ending point, ever. Silly constructs like that are only acceptable for fan works.
    Fine, fine. I'll investigate into this and make something better (well, I hope) out of this, removing the loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast
    About the "samurais" on level 19, couldn't they be thought of as ninjas instead of samurais?
    I have no idea, I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    I personally feel removing Lightning in Mirthshire will make it vastly easier, often I can get a part of the map revealed due to the Tunnelers and then just use the spell to kill off all the Heroes and win.
    I don't know if we should discuss of the other things to alter in the scripts for now. But if you wanna begin into that, then tell me the changes that you might think it would be a nice idea.
    Mirthshire isn't really a difficult level btw. I mean, you can acquire "Multiply Creatures" early on. It is there to give a little break for the player before the mighty Blaise End.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    For Mistle I think it could be more interesting if the enemy Keeper was aggressive instead of hiding in the corner of the map. Like make it so if he kills the Lord instead of you and claims that Hero fortress, you lose. So you can't take your time.
    Hard to tell. I don't think causing the Lotl to be killed by the enemy Keeper is a nice idea, especially when the text claims that it might be a good idea to send the heroes toward him to weaken him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    For Blaise I can't really think of how to make it harder. I find the level more of a nuisance than difficult due to too many creatures. My guess is remove the use of lava trap so you can't hole yourself in once you break out into the world.
    I don't see the point since you can already wall yourself in even without the trap.



    Just to mention, about Mistle, here's what I did in my patch. I don't claim that it's the perfect solution, so if there are things you don't really agree on, don't hesitate to tell me.
    First, I removed the Scavenger Room for the player so that you can't siphon the heroes you capture. Second, I increased the enemy keeper's max creatures from 32 to 50, adding more skeletons and spiders in the pool. I also added 2 samurais in the pool for the player, nothing major. The area where the wizards, thieves and barbarians are is sealed by impenetrable rock so that you have no choice to fight them instead of digging around and avoiding them. Wizards and thieves are also buffed of more extra levels. I was even thinking of walling the hero fortress of some impenetrable rock so that you're forced to go through the main entrance of the hero base instead of breaking through his wall near the water at the north next to the training room, but I didn't yet. I also planned to make a path for the enemy keeper to lead straight to the gems in the north east corner, avoiding the player to get access to these easily and preventing the enemy keeper to have an infinite supply of gold at the same time. This would make the level to be very difficult compared to before. Tell me about what you agree and what you don't.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  7. #17
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    In my version of Mistle (so far):

    - The amount of creatures at your disposal is reduced to 7, with the Mistress, BD and Troll pools reduced to 1 each.
    - The Rival Keeper gets access to Vampires, and you get a Priestess instead (My version of FX changes her loadout from Gas to Armour, negating THAT problem)
    - There's a scavenger room to the north, with a squad of . They're to act as a supplementary force until you get the training room
    - Hero drops are somewhat harder and heroes already on the map get beefcaked.
    - The Keeper's base is expanded, with full access to the northeast gems. Given that you won't have enough treasure to keep the happy until you get gem, there's a single free square that should sustain you until you get to the southeast gems (I'm working on expanding the cavern around them so you can bild a bigger treasure room.
    - Once the heroes are defeated, the enemy keeper's maximum creatures is doubled.
    - The Keeper is behind a Green Wall and tiles, meaning that you will need Destroy Walls before you get to him.

  8. #18
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    I don't know if we should discuss of the other things to alter in the scripts for now. But if you wanna begin into that, then tell me the changes that you might think it would be a nice idea.
    Mirthshire isn't really a difficult level btw. I mean, you can acquire "Multiply Creatures" early on. It is there to give a little break for the player before the mighty Blaise End.



    Hard to tell. I don't think causing the Lotl to be killed by the enemy Keeper is a nice idea, especially when the text claims that it might be a good idea to send the heroes toward him to weaken him.



    I don't see the point since you can already wall yourself in even without the trap.



    Just to mention, about Mistle, here's what I did in my patch. I don't claim that it's the perfect solution, so if there are things you don't really agree on, don't hesitate to tell me.
    First, I removed the Scavenger Room for the player so that you can't siphon the heroes you capture. Second, I increased the enemy keeper's max creatures from 32 to 50, adding more skeletons and spiders in the pool. I also added 2 samurais in the pool for the player, nothing major. The area where the wizards, thieves and barbarians are is sealed by impenetrable rock so that you have no choice to fight them instead of digging around and avoiding them. Wizards and thieves are also buffed of more extra levels. I was even thinking of walling the hero fortress of some impenetrable rock so that you're forced to go through the main entrance of the hero base instead of breaking through his wall near the water at the north next to the training room, but I didn't yet. I also planned to make a path for the enemy keeper to lead straight to the gems in the north east corner, avoiding the player to get access to these easily and preventing the enemy keeper to have an infinite supply of gold at the same time. This would make the level to be very difficult compared to before. Tell me about what you agree and what you don't.
    I am tired and feeling lazy so I will just go in a number order of what you said to me.

    1. In Mirthshire. I don't even bother with Multiply since you don't even need it with Lightning. So I would remove that on top of Lightning. I would also make the parties either spawn faster or be stronger, your late in the game so really no excuse for any Hero weaker than at least 6-7. I would even remove most of the Workshop items short of a Wooden/Braced Door, so it forces you to keep fighting the Heroes as they come. Can't think of much since this level is just too easy no matter what I can think of, I would have thought that the last few levels would be DOWNRIGHT BRUTAL, but in reality, 2 of them are a joke and one is only annoying.

    2. In Mistle. I was just thinking that since the Training Room and Destroy Walls spell is over there, so make it so if the enemy kills the Lotl, those rooms get destroyed, forever banning you from getting the room. So you would have to rely on what Heroes you did convert and your level 1 noobs which would make the final battle vastly harder if not impossible. Or downright make it impossible to win due to Blue being walled in due to an action after capturing the Destroy Wall spell and making you unable to kill him. Since as it is you got all the time in the world which is silly since with no pressure, you have no fear of losing.

    3. In Blaise. The idea was you will eventually have to break out into the world, and chances are you aren't going to have level 10s since your army is so huge that you can't afford it and it is wayyyy to slow if you tried ( I often just train 3 Mistresses to 10 and even that takes like an hour or 2 to happen, and that is my entire army the whole map.) And when you do, you have constant Heroes attacking you since you can't hide behind the Lava trap+Guard Post. And with continous Archer parties slamming into you, your what little trained troops will eventually fall unless you push fast, or take a ton of losses by throwing your level 1 noobs at them.

    4. I like all your ideas with Mistle. Removing Scavenger would be a +, already is easy to just convert 1 Hero and throw them in there. Keeper limit would make it harder for that final battle, which I agree further on if the Blue assaulting Heroes was also in, so you can lose access to TRaining Room as well as fighting huge numbers. Never go wrong with buffing Heroes, hell its the level before the end, I would make them all level 10 :L Also never new you could take Blue's gems, so removing that option for people that do is nice. I like your ideas here.


    Do you have any ideas for Skybird? Since even that level is fairly easy. The way the map is, you can beat the entire level with only fighting like 2 times. (Tentacles in water which you could Boulder even though I wouldn't, Horned Reaper and Priestess which is optional and could also be Bouldered even though once again I strongly wouldn't, Avatar first time, and Avatar second which are the only 2 times you truly have to fight.) You can kill the Blue keeper from the Avatar's prison with usually no bother from him. And all the Heroes from the 2nd Avatar fight can be blocked out or easily killed with traps.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    I've been playing DK for a long time and never considered throwing heroes into the scavenger room!

    Anyway, I think what Mistle needs is you no longer being able to attract mistresses and in stead allow the enemy keeper to attract them. Tweak the number of them for balance.
    This would give the enemy keeper a boost while at the same time takes away your ability to get a large number of horned reapers and stomp the heroes between you and the gold.

  10. #20
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post

    Is there a point in any of these bad and unnecessary ideas for changes to the original campaign?
    Not unnecessary, Dragon even said it would be optional. I agree with making the Campaign harder, since as it is it is a joke. Your only ever truly pushed and put to the test in what? 2 levels? Nothing wrong with making levels harder, moreso if it is optional and not forced. I would rather say is there no point to question it if it is optional and throwing ideas around is never a bad thing.

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