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Thread: Questions about the reversal of stuff

  
  1. #21
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I've been playing DK for a long time and never considered throwing heroes into the scavenger room!

    Anyway, I think what Mistle needs is you no longer being able to attract mistresses and in stead allow the enemy keeper to attract them. Tweak the number of them for balance.
    This would give the enemy keeper a boost while at the same time takes away your ability to get a large number of horned reapers and stomp the heroes between you and the gold.
    I have mixed thoughts with Reapers in this level. I feel you should only ever have 1 Reaper per level. But this level you kind of need a few of them to do the fighting for you here. Since all you got otherwise is suicide into the Tentacles and hope you manage to drop them and use them. Which isn't entirely bad either.

    I don't think the player should lose the ability to get Mistresses, since the enemy is already going to have a fuck ton of Skeletons, that is too much Lightning and would downright destroy you. Skeletons aren't that scary but if there is like 30 of them and most aren't in melee and spamming Lightning, even Reapers don't live long. I think the Mistress pool should be reduced to like 3 and both keepers can get them, but Red can only get 1 at a time. And you start with TR in your dungeon so in the beginning you are going to always get 1, but if you start making Reapers, you run the risk of losing your chance at her since Blue will get them all. Actually, maybe even all creatures you can get, he can, so you run the risk of losing those creature pools if you spam Reapers,

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Unless I missed something, this doesn't sound like he said it would be optional; it sounds like he said that he wants to edit the original Dungeon Keeper and Deeper Dungeons campaigns for KeeperFX. Unless you consider KeeperFX to be 'optional'.
    Beep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Do either everything, or do nothing. For that matter, do both. I think there should be 2 versions of the campaign - one as accurate as possible to the original (with aforementioned script bugs), and one where you can go wild with all your 'fixes'. Call them "DK1 campaign (original)" and "DK1 campaign (updated)" or something. There should be something similar as well with the DD levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Just to be clear, my patch will NOT be in there. It will be something separate. But I like the idea of doing 2 campaigns, one faithful to the original (and bugged) and the other updated to fix the many bugs, still without the extra modifications of my patch.
    Boop.
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    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

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  3. #23
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    To make Blaise End more difficult you can eliminate the workshop of that lvl. I used to make money putting and placing magic doors and boulders. Prevent more creatures to coming from the portal putting a door in front and locking it. The creatures will eventually die by hungry or leave the dungeon by not being paid. Also, to kill the mass amount of heroes, i just put some boulder traps, thats all. You dont even need to fight once.

    If you make the workshop unresearchble, Blaise End, in my opinion, will be more difficult. Since you cant make money from your workshop, you cant stop creature coming from your portal, and you will have to fight yes or yes.

    For Mirthshire, make the lightning spell unresearchble, and eliminate the transfer creature special of Tulipscent. Why? Since the heroes arent so high level you can kill they very easy with a transfered Orc, Dragon or Mistresses, or can be killed by the Keeper using the lightining spell.

    For Skybird Trill, theres is something that makes no sense to me. Why if is a "Hero Castle" there isnt one single heroe? Just 4 neutral beetles and 4 neutral flys in the hero heart room, a neutral Reaper in the torture room, and a Priestess and another Reaper heroes in a closed room. It would make more sense if that hero castle was full of high level heroes.

    For Mistle, eliminate the Scanvenger Room, and you have a decent level in your hands, at least.

  4. #24
    Dragon DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    1. In Mirthshire. I don't even bother with Multiply since you don't even need it with Lightning. So I would remove that on top of Lightning. I would also make the parties either spawn faster or be stronger, your late in the game so really no excuse for any Hero weaker than at least 6-7. I would even remove most of the Workshop items short of a Wooden/Braced Door, so it forces you to keep fighting the Heroes as they come. Can't think of much since this level is just too easy no matter what I can think of, I would have thought that the last few levels would be DOWNRIGHT BRUTAL, but in reality, 2 of them are a joke and one is only annoying.
    Removing Multiply would imply that this special magic box would never been used in the whole campaign. I'm against it. For buffing heroes or make them spawn faster, these would be radical changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    2. In Mistle. I was just thinking that since the Training Room and Destroy Walls spell is over there, so make it so if the enemy kills the Lotl, those rooms get destroyed, forever banning you from getting the room. So you would have to rely on what Heroes you did convert and your level 1 noobs which would make the final battle vastly harder if not impossible. Or downright make it impossible to win due to Blue being walled in due to an action after capturing the Destroy Wall spell and making you unable to kill him. Since as it is you got all the time in the world which is silly since with no pressure, you have no fear of losing.
    I can't really make something to destroy those rooms unless a script command is made for that, which isn't the case. About the enemy keeper killing the Lotl, like I said, the level incites you to attract the attention of heroes toward the enemy keeper. It's like if they want you to bring the heroes to kill the keeper instead of you. And I can't really make something that claims that you lose if the enemy keeper is walled in. It would be actually annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    3. In Blaise. The idea was you will eventually have to break out into the world, and chances are you aren't going to have level 10s since your army is so huge that you can't afford it and it is wayyyy to slow if you tried ( I often just train 3 Mistresses to 10 and even that takes like an hour or 2 to happen, and that is my entire army the whole map.) And when you do, you have constant Heroes attacking you since you can't hide behind the Lava trap+Guard Post. And with continous Archer parties slamming into you, your what little trained troops will eventually fall unless you push fast, or take a ton of losses by throwing your level 1 noobs at them.
    I don't know how do you play that level, but I always manage to handle everything. Heck, you can even win this level without claiming any portals!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    4. I like all your ideas with Mistle. Removing Scavenger would be a +, already is easy to just convert 1 Hero and throw them in there. Keeper limit would make it harder for that final battle, which I agree further on if the Blue assaulting Heroes was also in, so you can lose access to TRaining Room as well as fighting huge numbers. Never go wrong with buffing Heroes, hell its the level before the end, I would make them all level 10 :L Also never new you could take Blue's gems, so removing that option for people that do is nice. I like your ideas here.
    It's tricky to buff the heroes since you can make them attack the enemy keeper instead of you. I had to increase the enemy keeper's army since you could easily handle everything by letting the heroes crush him. My vision on this level is to capture everything you can in order to make a big army against the enemy keeper. I still have to check carefully about that level anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shonji
    Do you have any ideas for Skybird? Since even that level is fairly easy. The way the map is, you can beat the entire level with only fighting like 2 times. (Tentacles in water which you could Boulder even though I wouldn't, Horned Reaper and Priestess which is optional and could also be Bouldered even though once again I strongly wouldn't, Avatar first time, and Avatar second which are the only 2 times you truly have to fight.) You can kill the Blue keeper from the Avatar's prison with usually no bother from him. And all the Heroes from the 2nd Avatar fight can be blocked out or easily killed with traps.
    A solution I can see is to force the player to actually kill the enemy keeper in order to get the Avatar. That was the intended goal of the designers. About the hero parties that can be easily killed with traps, a solution would be that you cannot reach the hero gates in order to lay traps on their tiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast
    Why?
    To make the level harder

    And I agree with Wyrmcast, I want to make the levels harder, but not near impossible. It's still the original campaign after all, that can still be played by beginners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecarus
    To make Blaise End more difficult you can eliminate the workshop of that lvl. I used to make money putting and placing magic doors and boulders. Prevent more creatures to coming from the portal putting a door in front and locking it. The creatures will eventually die by hungry or leave the dungeon by not being paid. Also, to kill the mass amount of heroes, i just put some boulder traps, thats all. You dont even need to fight once.

    If you make the workshop unresearchble, Blaise End, in my opinion, will be more difficult. Since you cant make money from your workshop, you cant stop creature coming from your portal, and you will have to fight yes or yes.
    Removing the boulder trap could be an idea. I'm not sure about the doors though. But anyway, you can get access to gems "a bit" easily for your training needs.
    Something possible that can be done is to make the workshop possible to obtain later on in the level. I don't know if it would be a good idea though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecarus
    For Mirthshire, make the lightning spell unresearchble, and eliminate the transfer creature special of Tulipscent. Why? Since the heroes arent so high level you can kill they very easy with a transfered Orc, Dragon or Mistresses, or can be killed by the Keeper using the lightining spell.
    For the lightning spell, how about putting it somewhere as a spellbook? For eliminating the Transfer creature special, it's kind of impossible. You can easily transfer a minion from the bonus levels. You don't want me to remove all of the transfer crates, don't you?
    The only thing that can be done is to buff the heroes in the level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecarus
    For Skybird Trill, theres is something that makes no sense to me. Why if is a "Hero Castle" there isnt one single heroe? Just 4 neutral beetles and 4 neutral flys in the hero heart room, a neutral Reaper in the torture room, and a Priestess and another Reaper heroes in a closed room. It would make more sense if that hero castle was full of high level heroes.
    The plot of that level is that it's the enemy keeper that has already fought against the Avatar castle, killing all the heroes and imprisoning him. That's why the castle is empty and is left with 2 heroes not found, a horny that was tortured and a bit of insects. Most of the heroes were hidden and they reveal their presence once the Avatar is dead. So that's why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecarus
    For Mistle, eliminate the Scanvenger Room, and you have a decent level in your hands, at least.
    Already done in my patch.

    So far, I fixed all what I stated in my first post.

    In Tickle, a hero gate was added.
    In Woodly Rhyme, the handling of the flag is fixed.
    In Blaise End, there's NO LOOP, but once you get in front of the door that leads to the hero dungeon heart, you spawn a whole bunch of archers and barbarians. 28 in total + the final party.
    In Mistle, you can actually get 2 Samurais from the portal once you manage to capture one.
    In Skybird Trill, the hero gate number is changed and you only get the bridge when the enemy keeper is dead.
    In Kari-Mar, you can get the possibility to build the workshop once you claim it. The enemy keeper can also build workshops once researched.
    In Netzcaro, you have the SoE and the missing timer is added, but be warned: it's again a loop. In fact, there was already a loop on that level.
    In Belial, I fixed all the script errors.
    In Batezek, you get the SoE spell.
    In Daka-Gorn, you can dragons and the final party is fixed.

    For the other stuff, I'll have to check this out. I'll also have to check all the levels through a level editor to fix all the other bugs.

    Phew.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  5. #25
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Removing the boulder trap could be an idea. I'm not sure about the doors though. But anyway, you can get access to gems "a bit" easily for your training needs.
    Something possible that can be done is to make the workshop possible to obtain later on in the level. I don't know if it would be a good idea though.
    I agree, maybe put a action point in the room with the gems so when you claim the gems and start mining you can build a workshop. But again, not make the workshop research since the begin of Blaise End. Even if there is no boulder traps you can always place and sell magic doors, or, again, put a locked door in front of the portal so new creatures will not enter your dungeon and eventually die by hungry or leaving the dungeon.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    For the lightning spell, how about putting it somewhere as a spellbook? For eliminating the Transfer creature special, it's kind of impossible. You can easily transfer a minion from the bonus levels. You don't want me to remove all of the transfer crates, don't you?
    The only thing that can be done is to buff the heroes in the level.
    Maybe, but im not sure. Again, having the lightning spell is a very op advantage in Mirthshire, but the fact that you can get it as an spell book in the lvl is a posible solution.

    You are right, buff the heroes and lets see, that would fix both problems (trasfer creature kills everything too easy and lightning spell being too op).

  6. #26
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    A solution I can see is to force the player to actually kill the enemy keeper in order to get the Avatar. That was the intended goal of the designers.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; March 5th, 2014 at 18:51.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Sure. Here's the actual text you originally find in the TEXT.DAT file right around strings where it talks about the Avatar:

    "You got rid of that Keeper easily. Now all that stands between you and total world domination is that ponce in shining armour. Let's get him."
    Hope that's sufficient.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  8. #28

    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Sure. Here's the actual text you originally find in the TEXT.DAT file right around strings where it talks about the Avatar:
    Actually,... that doesn't say much. It acknowledges defeat of the keeper, but all it really does is reiterate you need to go after the avatar.

    Isn't the whole point of you not getting a bridge to guide you to the avatar first before you take on the rival keeper?
    Last edited by YourMaster; March 5th, 2014 at 23:02.

  9. #29
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Actually,... that doesn't say much. It acknowledges defeat of the keeper, but all it really does is reiterate you need to go after the avatar.

    Isn't the whole point of you not getting a bridge to guide you to the avatar first before you take on the rival keeper?
    This is what I thought when I was younger, hence I was questioning DragonsLover's claim. It doesn't make sense that you're only given the Bridge to enter the Blue dungeon after defeating the Avatar, yet according to this logic Blue is supposed to be dealt with first. The central dungeon also has that very convenient backdoor right to where the Avatar is kept away, so it's actually easier to reach him than to get to Blue's dungeon, especially without the bridge.

    Though the text does seem to support the point that the enemy Keeper is supposed fall first, and then the Avatar.

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  10. #30

    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Though the text does seem to support the point that the enemy Keeper is supposed fall first, and then the Avatar.
    Not really, it allows for the possibility,... but you need texts for multiple alternate scenarios. A single level good both contain the text 'You've defeated the blue keeper, now take out the yellow keeper' and the text 'You've defeated the yellow keeper, now take out the blue keeper'. And usually they do, in the campaign levels and deeper dungeons you'll get acknowledged for every opponent you defeat. I do think at some point they wanted you to take out the keeper first, the other texts do suggest that.

    I think the last level is a complete mess actually,... story wise mostly. This is the story:

    1. You have to attack the avatar
    2. You find out the blue keeper has taken the avatar, defeat the keeper to get to the avatar
    3. Kill the avatar
    4. The avatar is resurrected and will attack you with an army
    5. Defeat them for victory


    • Without the bridge it is too difficult to take out the blue keeper, but would they have connected you directly the enemy keeper would go on the offensive.
    • It is just plain silly to do a resurrection story in a game where converting creatures is such a central mechanic. A possible fix for this would be to disallow the avatar to faint.
    • Having you face the avatar on its own is just plain silly, this is supposed to be the boss of the game and the first time you meet him he is defenseless.
    • The backdoor appears to be just a way to show you where the avatar is located without allowing you access,... like dragons and reapers don't exist.


    I think what they wanted to do was this:

    1. Have you attack the avatar but find out the avatar has already been taken
    2. Allow you to find the avatar but be unable to get to him
    3. Force you to take out the keeper to get to the avatar only to find out the avatar escaped.
    4. Face the full force of the avatar and his armies.

    This would actually be a lot better then we have now, but this was simply impossible to do within the limitations of the game. They cannot reliably show you the avatar without you being able to kill him, and if they would reveal the map there would be no way to have him escape.

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