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Thread: Questions about the reversal of stuff

  
  1. #1
    Dark God DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Hello everyone!

    I still have interrogations about the reversal of stuff about the original Dungeon Keeper game and Deeper Dungeons under KeeperFX. I want your opinion on many things:

    • On level 8, Tickle, there's a portion of the script that is supposed to spawn heroes in a hero gate, but the hero gate is missing. Should the hero gate be added?
    • On level 15, Woodly Rhyme, a part of the code should only spawn two hero parties triggered by one of the two action points, but the flag assignment to prevent triggering the other action point is wrong. Should it be fixed?
    • On level 18, Blaise End, triggering the action point at the front of the hero fortress should continuously pour heroes at the hero dungeon heart over time, but the flag used is wrong and the timer isn't reset, preventing this. Should it be fixed?
    • On level 19, Mistle, you should get samurais from your portal if your army would decrease in number, which isn't the case since they aren't added to the pool. Should it be fixed?
    • On level 20, Skybird Trill, a hero party cannot be added because the hero gate is missing. And you get the bridge when the avatar is dead while you normally should get it when the blue keeper is dead. Should it be fixed?
    • On Kari-Mar, should you get the Workshop when you claim it? If not, should the magic doors and boulders removed instead because the workshop isn't big enough?
    • On Netzcaro, should you get the SOE spell and should the missing timer be added to spawn more heroes?
    • On Belial, oh boy. So many mistakes. I fixed most of them, but should they be? A party name was wrong at the final combat, a bad typo would prevent a party to be added and there's the missing ENDIF that ruins everything,
    • On Batezek, should you get the SOE spell?
    • On Daka-Gorn, should you get dragons? The final party is also too big (8 members), should it be fixed?
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  2. #2
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Do either everything, or do nothing. For that matter, do both. I think there should be 2 versions of the campaign - one as accurate as possible to the original (with aforementioned script bugs), and one where you can go wild with all your 'fixes'. Call them "DK1 campaign (original)" and "DK1 campaign (updated)" or something. There should be something similar as well with the DD levels.

    Cutting the line midway through will help neither the 'balance' of your patch, nor the preservation of the original classic campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    • On level 18, Blaise End, triggering the action point at the front of the hero fortress should continuously pour heroes at the hero dungeon heart over time, but the flag used is wrong and the timer isn't reset, preventing this. Should it be fixed?
    I call an exception for this. I can't seriously imagine this actually being intended behavior by the original level designers. In fact, I vaguely recall last time you "fixed" this, someone reported it as a bug.

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  3. #3
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    I pretty much agree with the Moth here, on all points.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    • On level 19, Mistle, you should get samurais from your portal if your army would decrease in number, which isn't the case since they aren't added to the pool. Should it be fixed?
    This one, however, is a little weird and even if it were an 'intended' effect, I don't think I'd add it in and call it a fix. Samurai are Heroes, probably more noble and honorable than the Knights, so why the hell are they coming through your portal to serve you?
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  4. #4
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    In fact, I vaguely recall last time you "fixed" this, someone reported it as a bug.
    Found it here:

    Thread: Scripting discrepancies in level 18 (Blaise End)

    When an end user calls your 'fix' a serious issue, you may want to rethink calling it or considering it a 'fix'.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Do either everything, or do nothing. For that matter, do both. I think there should be 2 versions of the campaign - one as accurate as possible to the original (with aforementioned script bugs), and one where you can go wild with all your 'fixes'. Call them "DK1 campaign (original)" and "DK1 campaign (updated)" or something. There should be something similar as well with the DD levels.
    I agree. Perhaps call them 'KeeperFX Campaign' and 'Original Campaign'.

    In the 'KeeperFX Campaign' you wouldn't have to keep yourself to strictly to what is fixed and what isn't, but better yet, make it close to original but fixed and balanced. Because I think in the original game DK team was bad at finding and fixing bugs, but did well on play-testing. I think an example of this is agility-bug, which is clearly a bug but they balanced the game around it so that when the bug was fixed some creature stats had to be modified as well. Similar with a lot of the fixes in the levels, when you fix them they also need to be rebalanced into a good difficulty curve. The original lvl 18 was about right in difficulty, so fixes that make it more difficult should be balanced out in other areas.
    On the other end of the spectrum, there were also many levels so broken you had no opposition, there fixing the levels is increasing the difficulty.

    The 'Original Campaign' should then also reverse as many bugfixes/changes to creatures as well. So make this one an emulation for the original experience.
    Last edited by YourMaster; February 25th, 2014 at 22:54.

  6. #6
    Dark God DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Just to be clear, my patch will NOT be in there. It will be something separate. But I like the idea of doing 2 campaigns, one faithful to the original (and bugged) and the other updated to fix the many bugs, still without the extra modifications of my patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    I call an exception for this. I can't seriously imagine this actually being intended behavior by the original level designers. In fact, I vaguely recall last time you "fixed" this, someone reported it as a bug.
    When an end user calls your 'fix' a serious issue, you may want to rethink calling it or considering it a 'fix'.
    Yeah yeah... From what I've seen, it seemed to be intended that the final dungeon heart was filled with many heroes to conquer. The concept of Blaise End is a straightforward level with a mighty final battle. In my actual version of the patch, I limited the amount of heroes to something reasonable so, I can do the same thing here too, with even less powerful heroes, the ones intended. Like I mentioned in that old post, you can totally beat the level with an army of around 50 or 60 high level minions, it's not that hard. A new player would also have learned how to capture heroes or produce vampires or skeletons to help him, and gems aren't that difficult to get to these if the money is short.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    This one, however, is a little weird and even if it were an 'intended' effect, I don't think I'd add it in and call it a fix. Samurai are Heroes, probably more noble and honorable than the Knights, so why the hell are they coming through your portal to serve you?
    That's what is indicated in the script and the text file. But samurais will come only if you manage to capture one of them through the torture chamber or steal hero. Here are the original texts by the Bullfrog designers:

    In the script: "You have converted a samurai to your way, he has promised that if your forces should decrease, his collegues will join you through your entrance"
    In the text file: "Your evil has corrupted a Samurai warrior, he has forsaken honour to join your cause. Should your minions suffer heavy casualties, this warrior will call upon his brothers in arms from the Portal to offer assistance. How kind. How stupid!"

    Stupid indeed. :P So yeah, it was intended for samurais to join you from the portal by the official designers.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



  7. #7
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    That's what is indicated in the script and the text file. But samurais will come only if you manage to capture one of them through the torture chamber or steal hero. Here are the original texts by the Bullfrog designers:

    In the script: "You have converted a samurai to your way, he has promised that if your forces should decrease, his collegues will join you through your entrance"
    In the text file: "Your evil has corrupted a Samurai warrior, he has forsaken honour to join your cause. Should your minions suffer heavy casualties, this warrior will call upon his brothers in arms from the Portal to offer assistance. How kind. How stupid!"

    Stupid indeed. :P So yeah, it was intended for samurais to join you from the portal by the official designers.
    I'm not arguing if it's intended. I'm arguing that it is very strange regardless. It would imply that there are other Samurai within the Portal, waiting with other Creatures. It doesn't really make much sense from a story / lore standpoint. And from a gameplay standpoint, I don't really see the need. Samurai are pretty strong melee units, with and without the Training Room. If I recall correctly, they also train pretty fast (though I vaguely recall you reducing the speed of that in your patch, if I'm not mistaken) so they'd be easy to reach level 10 with, where they'd be incredibly strong especially as the Level 10 Speed bug would have been fixed.

    Gaining Samurai from the Portal as an extra bonus when your minions run low is very much like a crutch for the Player. But this is the semi-finale, so should the Player really need it? He should be good to go by that point.

    I just don't see a very good reason to add it.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
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  8. #8
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Yeah yeah... From what I've seen, it seemed to be intended that the final dungeon heart was filled with many heroes to conquer.
    If by "many heroes", you mean an infinite loop of level 3 archers to make for the final battle is intended, then [citation needed].

    Not everything the game code/script code shows is intended design. WoP wasn't meant to instantly kill everything within eyesight either, yet game code turned out that way (after its ability to damage was restored). Likewise, the script may have traces of a loop, but that doesn't mean it was intended to be an infinite loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    The concept of Blaise End is a straightforward level with a mighty final battle. In my actual version of the patch, I limited the amount of heroes to something reasonable so, I can do the same thing here too, with even less powerful heroes, the ones intended.
    Please let me get this straight here. What are the units/levels/counts for your "actual version of the patch", for what you are proposing here, for what was (apparently) intended, and for what the original actually was? There's up to four different things you're talking about here.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Like I mentioned in that old post, you can totally beat the level with an army of around 50 or 60 high level minions, it's not that hard. A new player would also have learned how to capture heroes or produce vampires or skeletons to help him, and gems aren't that difficult to get to these if the money is short.
    It's not about how hard this is. It's about how conceptually retarded this infinite loop of heroes is.

    Like I said, I cannot seriously imagine anyone over at Bullfrog having thought "hey, let's make the final fight of this stage an infinite loop of weak level 3 creatures in a manner that just screams "script logic error" and is certain to bug out the game given enough time. Absolutely genius".
    Last edited by Mothrayas; February 26th, 2014 at 00:42.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Just like Batezek (AFAIR, there was a script loop with a hero drop in their main base).

    That said, In my revised version of the campaign, the Hero Dragon is going to be restored, and the hero parties can't be walled off (as in they are connected to the middle hero base) and will come in greater strength and numbers (imagine a squad of and ) bearing down on your position while you are fighting heroes to the east). Yep, I imagine Blaise End as being a map of murder.
    or that is the question

  10. #10
    Dark God DragonsLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about the reversal of stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by MGR
    I just don't see a very good reason to add it.
    Either I include a few samurais in the pool, either I simply get rid of the text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    If by "many heroes", you mean an infinite loop of level 3 archers to make for the final battle is intended, then [citation needed].

    Not everything the game code/script code shows is intended design. WoP wasn't meant to instantly kill everything within eyesight either, yet game code turned out that way (after its ability to damage was restored). Likewise, the script may have traces of a loop, but that doesn't mean it was intended to be an infinite loop.
    I know about that. Like I said many times, since I'm not the real author or from Bullfrog, I don't really know if that was intentional or if it was a bug. I can only guess about what is given and do my best about that. Nothing claims that I'm the one who's always right. If you're looking at me like that, then it's not my goal. Not at all.

    That's why I'm doing this post, that's why I'm asking YOU about suggestions of what should be the best. Otherwise, I'd still have made things on my own and get complains out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    Please let me get this straight here. What are the units/levels/counts for your "actual version of the patch", for what you are proposing here, for what was (apparently) intended, and for what the original actually was? There's up to four different things you're talking about here.
    In my patch, units remain the same: archers and barbarians, but instead of being level 2 or 3, they're level 5. I made a loop that continuously adds them in the hero dungeon heart until there's 32 archers on the level, so then it stops. It's absolutely not the same thing of what it is ACTUALLY in KeeperFx. All the changes of my previous versions are, yes, let me say it frankly: crap. Like I said many times, I DID mistakes and I'm sometimes even surprised myself how badly I did this patch. I just hope I'm doing right this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas
    It's not about how hard this is. It's about how conceptually retarded this infinite loop of heroes is.

    Like I said, I cannot seriously imagine anyone over at Bullfrog having thought "hey, let's make the final fight of this stage an infinite loop of weak level 3 creatures in a manner that just screams "script logic error" and is certain to bug out the game given enough time. Absolutely genius".
    I know, I know. But if that would have been correctly scripted, perhaps that would have been like that in the original game, which isn't the case for now. And this is why I'm still waiting for suggestions. Should I create only a few parties? Should I only spawn the final party? Anything is possible. Since we're close to the final level, that you can attract tons of minions from the pool, that you can also imprison and torture powerful heroes, I'd see it as a good idea to have something massive at the end of that level so that our big army is for something, just not for a few pathetic heroes. That's my point of view, but I can understand it's not the case for everyone.
    I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...



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