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Thread: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

  
  1. #11
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Nothing to say wyrmcast, complete agree with everything you said, but if the developers intended that blue should surrender to red, then why they put blue?

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I've played scenario G (because H is impossible),... moved the avatar prison to be north of the hearth, so I kept the backdoor and so the rest of the level intact.

    I have to say,... story wise I really prefer it over the original, but I like the level itself less then the original. The blue keeper is simply too powerful, I won, but it isn't fun anymore.
    I think that if a scenario is chosen that includes killing Blue, the level needs some further balance tweaks.

    Part of the reason, is that a lot of improvements have been made tot he Computer Player recently in KeeperFX. Blue now fully trains his creatures(21 level 10 vampires), is allowed a larger army which includes vampires, dragons and Mistresses(Warlocks are killed off), defends his dungeon heart, and takes full advantage of his level 10 trolls/dragons/bile demons and the help of his vampires to scavenge away your creatures.
    I played option H, partially removing the backdoor, and making imposible the final wave of heroes come if you have an Avatar in your army (you will have to throw it in the portal), this can be used meanwhile, for me, was imposible to kill Blue, because if you kill blue vampire they will resucite, if you kill the others creatures, you end facing an army of lvl1 vampires that will fast train by fighting your creatures. Also you cant scavenge his creatures because he will scavenge yours faster. I think i changed my opinion, killing blue in KeeperFX without an Avatar is very difficult...

  2. #12

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    Have you tried using the Disease spell against blue?
    I think here we are trying to fix something which isn't broken, because we have some kind of vague and irrational hatred of the original design of the level.
    The blue Keeper playing better is a good argument, for not requiring the blue Keeper to be killed.
    Yes, I did.
    And yes, the blue keeper playing better is an argument for not requiring to kill blue. Either not at all, or not in its current form. Like mentioned in the other tread, if you decide to make changes, you need to balance around that. So either don't change anything, or change multiple things.

  3. #13

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecarus View Post
    I played option H, partially removing the backdoor, and making imposible the final wave of heroes come if you have an Avatar in your army (you will have to throw it in the portal), this can be used meanwhile, for me, was imposible to kill Blue, because if you kill blue vampire they will resucite, if you kill the others creatures, you end facing an army of lvl1 vampires that will fast train by fighting your creatures. Also you cant scavenge his creatures because he will scavenge yours faster. I think i changed my opinion, killing blue in KeeperFX without an Avatar is very difficult...
    I don't think having the Avatar has a huge impact on the fight with blue,... sure it helps, but in either case a full frontal assault is a guaranteed loss.
    I've played level 20 starting with blue a little while ago, and then the disease spell worked like a charm, and I could defeat a weakened blue, picking off vampires. Yesterday I did so again, and my disease was ineffective(I think I casted it low level, and when I recasted it with a high level it wouldn't stick). I had to draw out the entire blue army and while he obliterated my forces I sniped his Hearth.

  4. #14
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Vampires arent inmune to disease spell? I remember that in Original DK1 i can't use Disease on Vampires... Anyway, blue is simple too powerful, vampires are incredible too op in Skybird, and i dont think the disease spell should help a lot, because as vampires are inmortal... they will resucite, and train again, and it is like if you didnt nothing.

  5. #15

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    I agree that blue is too strong,...

    However, Vampires are really vulnerable to disease, as the way to cure disease is to throw the creatures in the temple, which is something that angers the vampires. And when they are angry they start to kill other creatures and persuade other creatures to join them. The computer player then starts to cast lightning and chicken on his own creatures.

  6. #16

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    You get access to build bridges when you kill blue
    Ah do you? Awesome - I didn't know that: Thank you But just to clarify - It's not that I don't like using CtA to navigate an enemy's dungeon (it's pretty much the only way sometimes) or that you shouldn't need it to hit the enemy's heart. It's more that the game generally lets you predominantly navigate to the next objective by claiming/bridges (exceptions being levels like Dixaroc which require possession) and it just seems annoyingly tedious to force the player to CtA their way to the Avatar's prison (Note I'm just talking about the Avatar, not defeating the blue keeper). I'm also thinking of new players, whether they'd know where to find the Avatar (I always went through the back door so can't remember if you get LoS of his prison). But if you can bridge to the blue keeper's dungeon after killing him, that pretty much solves that one

    Interesting note: Recently a bug was fixed by mefistotelis that has always been present, which caused enemy keepers to not defend the dungeon hearth. You might find your strategy to be less effective in the latest build.
    Fantastic news! I look forward to this

    But yeah, the Blue Keeper was a nasty sod to take care of even in vanilla DK... so I dread to think what the AI fixes will do to them. Even when I started the game with the Level 9 Vampire from the 2nd bonus round, he managed to snatch him in no time at all. The fact that you can't claim their land and they have little inclination to come after you means that the fight is almost always on their turf and terms (Translation: Your creatures get Diseased to sin, crushed by boulders and worn down by swathes of vampires)

    As already mentioned: Unless blue or the level is given a bit of an overhaul - then the ability to capture the Avatar should be left. But where such changes will be so dramatic, we come back to the 2-campaign idea

    I think the question here is, in terms of the original (or "official") campaign - Should we force the player to kill blue at some point? (Whether they need to kill them to win the level or trigger the final wave)

  7. #17

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mullertime View Post
    Fantastic news! I look forward to this
    If you download a nightly, you can play it now.

  8. #18

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Ah yes, it's a recent fix! (Thanks for pointing that out)

    Now I just need to get to level 20 I'm only on level 8 (and will probably start the campaign again to try out a few stat changes I have in mind)

  9. #19

    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    This is as good a place as any to ask.

    Mefistotelis, what does the 'ONE_OF_KIND' creature property do that has been introduced for the Avatar in nightly build r1166? How will it affect level 20? Will you still be able to convert the Avatar? And if you do, will it disappear when the next one appears?

  10. #20
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would be the best intended final situation in the original campaign?

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    what does the 'ONE_OF_KIND' creature property do that has been introduced for the Avatar in nightly build r1166?
    Currently, it only influences name of the creature - all creatures have randomized names, besides Avatar which is 'ONE_OF_KIND', so his name is always equal to his kind name - "Avatar".

    We might decide to make some more mechanics depend on this attribute, but I think enforcing one avatar in level 20 should be scripted (I will finish KILL_CREATURE() script command sooner or later, and it will be used to make sure there is only one Avatar).

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