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Thread: Creature Fears

  
  1. #1

    Default Creature Fears

    Did KeeperFX change Creature Fears?

    I noticed my gang of Wizards wouldn't attack an enemy Avatar, but I remember playing the original DK as a kid and I actually had a Wizard defeat an Avatar 1 on 1 in ranged combat.

    Is there a list of which creatures are scared of which others?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Creature Fears

    There is a change yes, and all creatures are afraid of all others to a certain extend. In the config each creature now has three fear settings:

    Code:
    ; Wounded fear set to 101 will make creature escape from any combat other than
    ; protecting heart, or a combat with single creature of the same kind.
    ; This special value works the same way regardless of creature tendencies.
    ; Smaller value will make the creature escape if it has less than given percentage
    ; of health left (0-never escape, 100-escape even if no health is lost).
    FearWounded = 101
    ; Fear of stronger creatures - how many times the enemy has to be stronger in order
    ; for the creature to escape. Value of 100 will make the creature fear an enemy with
    ; same strength, 200 will make it fear enemies which are twice as strong, etc.
    ; The proper range of this value is 100..30000 %.
    FearStronger = 800
    ; The FearWounded and FearStronger values are used unmodified only when Flee tendency
    ; is enabled. If the keeper didn't turned on flee, FearWounded is divided and
    ; FearStronger is multiplied by the following value before they are used (0..100).
    FearNoFleeFactor = 8
    I really dislike the current implementation as well, as like mentioned a lot of creatures are now unwilling to fight battles they should win. The effect is a lot worse with the flee setting enabled.
    For example if you are attacked by a single enemy giant and throw all your warlocks to kill him, an easy victory if they would fight, they will all run away. And worse still, they don't run in any particular direction and don't stop fleeing if the scary enemy is defeated. As this setting is based on 'strength' the magical creatures are especially fearful, and the slow-but-strong creatures like giants are especially scary.

    I'm not sure it is still the same in the current build, but when I faced the avatar with the 'flee' setting on, even my level 10 dragons ran away from him.

    Edit: I've checked the code, and actually perhaps the system isn't that bad. Having support from friendly creatures makes creatures less afraid. Still, that leaves two mayor issues in my book:
    • The Flee setting should have no effect on creature fear. The flee setting should only enable/disable creatures retreating on low health. In other words, the 'FearNoFleeFactor' should be 1 in all cases.
    • Fear should not be based on 'Strength'. Right now a Dwarf is 2.5 times scarier than a Wizard.
    Last edited by YourMaster; April 23rd, 2014 at 22:07.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Creature Fears

    That sounds very familiar. Hopefully it's balanced out a bit more.

    The opposite can be a problem with certain creatures too, e.g. Skeletons never flee until they've only a sliver of health left, at which point they'll mostly likely sustain that final hit before escaping. They are quite brittle, after all.

    Maybe enabling Must Obey should remove all Creature Fears?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Creature Fears

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwame View Post
    That sounds very familiar. Hopefully it's balanced out a bit more.

    The opposite can be a problem with certain creatures too, e.g. Skeletons never flee until they've only a sliver of health left, at which point they'll mostly likely sustain that final hit before escaping. They are quite brittle, after all.

    Maybe enabling Must Obey should remove all Creature Fears?
    I don't think adding another complication like Must Obey would be a change for the better. I think the simpler the better, and removing the 'FearNoFleeFactor' would be a very good start. Beyond that, if fear is no longer based on strength, each creatures could get an 'Intimidating' value which determines how scary it is. After that all that remains is tweaking the numbers in the creature configs until everything is balanced.

    If taken further a separate ingame option for 'Retreat' could be added which allows creatures to flee when outpowered, but this should not be based on a single opposing creature but the difference in enemy creatures in the area versus friendly creatures. This would prevent Flies and Hounds from getting killed,... however that would take away some of the current gameplay in micromanagement of your creatures so I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Creature Fears

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    ...

    If taken further a separate ingame option for 'Retreat' could be added which allows creatures to flee when outpowered, but this should not be based on a single opposing creature but the difference in enemy creatures in the area versus friendly creatures. This would prevent Flies and Hounds from getting killed,... however that would take away some of the current gameplay in micromanagement of your creatures so I'm not sure that's such a good idea.
    It's a conceptual idea that animates throughout the game, flies and hellhounds were created for exploration purposes, they weren't created to be formidable creatures that flee in the fear of danger. Plus the idea should be that you're so evil that seeing your own creatures killed for gain of knowledge so strategies can be put in place is essential for gameplay. I fear that some of the "improvements" that have been implemented into KeeperFX seem to be taking the evil side that most people enjoyed in the game to a much mediocre level. You're supposed to fight battles with all glory blazing regardless of ability to fight.
    to exemplify say you had only weak creatures with a relatively quick generation of creature from the portal and say an enemy Giant is walking towards your dungeon. Now say in the vanilla dungeon keeper even though your creatures would continuously be defeated the damage they could do over time could be prevalent enough to destroy the giant before he reaches your dungeon, however with the newer fear factors that have been implemented if the weaker creatures were to run away you could find that your strength to destroy them once they've reached the dungeon heart( the moment in which they would fight to the death) wouldn't be strong enough.
    lets say, a giant level 10 had 4000 health, and a level 10 fly could do 40 damage. So if you had 10 flies able to do damage relatively. then it would only take 10 rounds of flies to destroy the giant. whereas if the flies fled because they are too weak then the damage they could do wouldn't be anywhere near enough at the moment they would fight (near the dungeon heart)
    if you see what I mean.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Creature Fears

    Quote Originally Posted by shortmicky View Post
    It's a conceptual idea that animates throughout the game, flies and hellhounds were created for exploration purposes, they weren't created to be formidable creatures that flee in the fear of danger.
    I agree, but I believe I read on this forum that Mefistotelis introduced the current fear implementation to make hellhounds/flies less of a bother. I don't think it worked out so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by shortmicky View Post
    Plus the idea should be that you're so evil that seeing your own creatures killed for gain of knowledge so strategies can be put in place is essential for gameplay. I fear that some of the "improvements" that have been implemented into KeeperFX seem to be taking the evil side that most people enjoyed in the game to a much mediocre level. You're supposed to fight battles with all glory blazing regardless of ability to fight.
    to exemplify say you had only weak creatures with a relatively quick generation of creature from the portal and say an enemy Giant is walking towards your dungeon. Now say in the vanilla dungeon keeper even though your creatures would continuously be defeated the damage they could do over time could be prevalent enough to destroy the giant before he reaches your dungeon, however with the newer fear factors that have been implemented if the weaker creatures were to run away you could find that your strength to destroy them once they've reached the dungeon heart( the moment in which they would fight to the death) wouldn't be strong enough.
    lets say, a giant level 10 had 4000 health, and a level 10 fly could do 40 damage. So if you had 10 flies able to do damage relatively. then it would only take 10 rounds of flies to destroy the giant. whereas if the flies fled because they are too weak then the damage they could do wouldn't be anywhere near enough at the moment they would fight (near the dungeon heart)
    if you see what I mean.
    I don't see what you mean at all. Yes, creatures are less effective now because they are fearful. But I don't know what you're arguing,...

    If you say adding a 'retreat option' isn't the best option, I can see where you're coming from,... that's why I said I don't know if it such a good idea as it takes away some gameplay mechanics. But right now in KeeperFX 'fear' and 'retreat' have been mixed together in a strange way and I really think it should change.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Creature Fears

    Interesting, I just played another level (part of the Arctic Campaign) and managed to get a Wizard to fight an Avatar (both Level 10) one on one, without fear. I just had to place the Wizard on a little island with nowhere to run. He did actually win. Although, to be honest, the Avatar had taken some damage already.

    By the way, have you guys played that campaign? I've found that in many of the levels with enemy keepers, the heroes destroy them early in the game, due to the keepers exporing too much. I wonder if this is due to KeeperFX or is it intentional...

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