Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Imprison (The Level)

  
  1. #1
    Warlock
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    411

    Default Imprison (The Level)

    I played the "imprison" level, and though it was a fun concept (doing a jailbreak for your minions), there seems to be no way to win the level, because your best minion will be scavenged, the rest will become hero skeletons (and there's no means of stopping that), leaving you with 3 tentacles.

    I think there's a bug somewhere.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    I've tried the level for you, and it is possible. You'll start with a horned reaper, make your way to your dungeon heart with it avoiding the boulder traps. Then claim the first prison to your left.

    You don't have a bridge, but you can dig a backdoor towards it. When you claim the area behind the walls, the fortified walls can be destroyed.

  3. #3
    Warlock
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    411

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    Meanwhile the Blue Keeper is all but invincible (Seriously. Outnumbered 2-1 while stealthing the heart is no longer an option, and that's WITH an )

  4. #4

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    O, don't get me wrong, I saw a bit of the level and had no interest in trying to complete it, far too frustrating. But the beginning works and you'll end up with a few creatures if you're fast enough, and even those run the risk of getting scavenged.

    There is a bug though, but that is in your advantage: The ingame message states you can't imprison, and you can't. This bug prevents you from seeing that. However, when I loaded the game back up, the imprison-toggle button was off(I had left it on), but I could imprison heroes, which allows you to gain skeletons.

  5. #5
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    There's a certain amusement to be had with the way people keep going back to these ancient levels through KeeperFX, even complain about the difficulty of them. I made this map back when I was a child with immature level designing capabilities. That's probably the case with a lot of these levels, except most of these old level designers have probably long since vanished or were never on the forums to begin with. This is also one reason why I say FX shouldn't put as much emphasis into campaigns.

    This map reminds me of another map I was making and never finished / released, "Hell Frozen Over". It was a balanced mixture between a scavenge / skirmish type map and a possession style map with a fair share of 'puzzles'. It's quite interesting if also very difficult. If I still worked with DK1, I'd probably finish it but remake it on a more professional level. Oh well.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; August 9th, 2014 at 05:38.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    People still like the game, and as such will try new maps as you can only play the main campaign so many times. Unfortunately the game isn't so popular that a massive custom-map community exists which has some excellent map makers and rates the maps so people can find the good ones.

    Rex, do you have any maps you would recommend?

  7. #7
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    People still like the game, and as such will try new maps as you can only play the main campaign so many times. Unfortunately the game isn't so popular that a massive custom-map community exists which has some excellent map makers and rates the maps so people can find the good ones.

    Rex, do you have any maps you would recommend?
    Duke Ragereaver's undead campaign (the original one, not post undead, never played the latter) and Burdened Imp's maps are the only levels that come to mind that I really enjoyed while also being provided with at least some decent difficulty. Duke in general is a pretty good level designer from what I remember, so you can check out maps by him. I didn't play them all but I did try a number of them outside of the undead campaign, which I'm familiar with because I tested it personally.

    It's been a very long time since I ventured into the vast selection of DK1 maps on mefisto's site. I recall doing that a lot when I was younger and played Dk1 much more actively (or at all). While I vaguely remember some interesting maps and some not so creative / frustrating maps outside the ones I mentioned, my memory is too foggy so I can't remember enough of them to know whether they're any good or not or even which maps they are. So I'm afraid I can't be of too much help regarding recommendations outside of suggesting Duke's maps.

    * * * * * * *

    A lot of the maps are quite old and most people don't have the necessary understanding or experience to create proper level design to offer both a fun and challenging experience. Anyone can create easy or brutally unfair maps, but it takes real talent to find not only the balance of difficulty but also a means to properly present such difficulty to make the map more enjoyable as opposed to being frustrating. Before you can even get to that point though, you also need a very good understanding of the game itself to know how to bend it to your whim as a level designer. Getting that atmospheric touch is also quite important as well to adding to the experience.

    I'm not even sure if the official levels properly captured that ideal level of difficulty. For the most part, the original DK1 seems to lean on the easier side of things while DD has a sense of unfairness in some of its levels (given the fact that it was rushed, this is understandable if still inexcusable). If most people look up to the original campaign for inspiration or for guidelines (I'm assuming), and if not even the official maps provide the necessary elements, then it's no surprise that the vast majority of maps will be less adequate.

    Needless to say, it would be very difficult to try and pick out the actually good levels from people who knew what they were doing, even if I did remember my past explorations of the DK1 map section.

    * * * * * * *

    While I haven't played DK1 in ages, it's still vaguely possible (not in the near future though) that I could return to the DK1 mapmaking scene. I'd have to catch up on FX and brush up my knowledge of DK1 first though, and it'd probably only come after I finish the DK2 patch. My feelings for and interest in DK1 right now are quite mixed. I'd like to rework my balance patch for DK1 if I ever officially return. However, my conflicting interest stems from pretty much a DK1 vs DK2 situation.

    While it should be fairly well known why DK1 is superior to vanilla DK2, DK2 is still is mechanically superior to DK1 in a lot of ways, despite being a rushed and poorly programmed piece of crap in many other ways. There's a lot more I can do when messing with DK2 as opposed to messing with DK1, and that's probably what pulls me into the direction of DK2 for the moment. Since I can only realistically work on one at a time, well, that's why I'm sticking with DK2 until I finish the patch.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    I'll try some of the duke's maps.

    I understand why you're saying that you can do more with DK2, but for me it's basically a lost cause. When I read about your patch I liked all the changes, but playing is I noticed in DK2 it is still no fun to build a dungeon, which is what I like about the games. What DK2 needs is re-balancing and a technical update to allow everybody to play it on their modern machines, but in my opinion also an overhaul of dungeon mechanics and its bud-ugly graphics.
    DK1 on the other hand - even though still lacking somewhat in quality control, it could surely have used a few official patches - mechanics wise is just fine. What it needs, is some good maps. And a better computerplayer AI, luckily some improvements have been made in FX already, but there are still a few simple modifications that would make all the difference.
    Like you mention, the campaign maps are too basic, I'd say a handful of levels are doable, and the DD maps are for a large part balanced around reloading your save game as it brings challenge through the unknown(what's behind door number 3, o it's too many heroes).

    A little while ago I've started making a new_game+ campaign for DK1, dropping all the hints and just a few modifications in each level to make it worthwhile. I think later this year I'll have some time to finish, and who, perhaps afterwards I'll design a map myself - it's not too far off from what I used to do for a living - but that would still be quite the effort since there is no real template of what makes a DK1 map interesting.

  9. #9
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I understand why you're saying that you can do more with DK2, but for me it's basically a lost cause. When I read about your patch I liked all the changes, but playing is I noticed in DK2 it is still no fun to build a dungeon, which is what I like about the games. What DK2 needs is re-balancing and a technical update to allow everybody to play it on their modern machines, but in my opinion also an overhaul of dungeon mechanics and its bud-ugly graphics.
    Personally, the combat elements of my patch is enough to keep me playing, but nevertheless I agree with your assessment. I still get frustrated by DK2 usually because of some stupid DK2 mechanic or design choice that I can't change, like creature management and the way everyone just wanders around. The wandering thing could be done if only creatures wandered between rooms instead of just any tile as that causes them to get into trouble or be suddenly killed without you knowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    DK1 on the other hand - even though still lacking somewhat in quality control, it could surely have used a few official patches - mechanics wise is just fine. What it needs, is some good maps. And a better computerplayer AI, luckily some improvements have been made in FX already, but there are still a few simple modifications that would make all the difference.
    Does Cave-In not glitch out Creature AI by making them return to their Lair / Dungeon Heart / Spawning point if Hero? Can the Creature AI properly handle being attacked by Invisible Creatures? These are certainly a few things I know that bothered me before.

    * * * * * * *

    Earlier, not too long after my previous post, I found myself rather unwilling to do any of my usual tasks. So I ended up downloading FX and spent like an hour or so looking at stats and such to pass the time and to get a feel for what kind of possibilities could be done.

    Anywho, I couldn't help but notice that the Dexterity vs Defense values are still screwed, which is something that should also be fixed. FX uses an outdated version of DragonsLover's patch if I recall, and DL tried to counter the Dexterity glitch by lowering the values of Dexterity. However, he didn't lower the Defense values, causing there to be some severe hit / miss problems. I told him about this issue and I'm certain he changed it, but it's never been changed for FX. I also noticed that the Dexterity increase on growth is 15% while Defense is 20%, despite the former already having a larger base due to what I just mentioned.

    Additionally, I think that even if the Defense values are properly lowered, the Hit / Miss values will still be kind of funky due to the way Hit / Miss is calculated. While I haven't looked at the source code so I don't know the true calculations, I made an assumption based on the information given in the Imp config file on what those calculations look like.

    So it's probably something like this:
    Code:
    Hit Chance = (50 + (User Dexterity / 255) - (Enemy Defense / 255))%
    50 serves as a base line, so a base 50% chance to hit. Then of course there's the max 88% and minimum 12% chance to hit.

    The division of 255 is something I remember from the armor calculations because 8 bit, but I can't remember if it's supposed to be 255 or 256, like whether or not it starts at 0 or 1 in this situation. Details.

    Anyways, provided that the hit formula is essentially this, even if you have the Defense values lowered to properly match the Dexterity values, the problem is that there is too little variance between creatures. Due to the fact that their values are so low (every 26 points of difference between Dexterity and Defense is ~10% difference in hit chance), unit hit chances won't stray too far from the base line. Most units will have 40-60% to hit across the board. That's incredibly boring. The variance will only come when a unit outlevels an opponent severely, but then they're already dead so yeah.

    My idea to make better and more interesting hit chances to allow for more possibilities for unit strengths / weaknesses is to return the Dexterity / Defense values to their original form but then remove or severely reduce the growth of such values (like 5 for both if they're not removed). This way, you have that variance to better identify some units as being more or less accurate than others (Bile Demons vs Samurai for instance is a major difference). The removal of the growth value is to not only avoid ridiculous hit / miss situations as units level, but to also prevent hitting that 255 cap to retain that difference in values.

    This is a bit of a ramble, and maybe I should put it in its own thread for discussion / grab Mefisto's attention better, but it's something that I noticed and felt like mentioning as you referred to simple modifications making larger impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Like you mention, the campaign maps are too basic, I'd say a handful of levels are doable, and the DD maps are for a large part balanced around reloading your save game as it brings challenge through the unknown(what's behind door number 3, o it's too many heroes).
    Remember Dixaroc? Good times... Claiming past the first pool of lava you see, venturing onward. Sort of minding your own business while slaughtering the locals. Then BAM. Samurai Hero Party at your Dungeon Heart. Freaking huge dick move. I liked the level otherwise.

    If there is one thing I'd like to see from FX, it's either an increase to the limit of things like IF statements or a removal to it entirely. That's one of the reasons why DK1 maps have to remain relatively simple, and one of the ways that DK2 has it better than Dk1. There's only so much you can do with a map before you suffer from technical limitations, something I've encountered several times before that limited some of my unfinished maps.

    For Level 9 in the patched DK2 campaign, I made kind of like a maze of long, extended passages and areas. The Lord of the Land appears after 20 minutes from one of four Hero Gates (random) and he starts to move from point to point around the map to escape through one of five different Hero Gates to transition into the next land. If you claim certain points along his path, he'll try to alter his path or go into panic mode where he spends less time at a stopping point, especially if you attack him.

    This level has definitely one of the largest, if not the largest, script to be made for DK2 maps in order to accomplish all this. But my real point lies in the fact that I can do something so crazy with DK2 where I can't do such with DK1. While DK1 doesn't support the same kind of scripting capabilities as DK2, something I don't really blame it for as it is older, the limits in things like IF commands or ADD_TUNNELLER_PARTY_TO_LEVEL certainly don't help the situation either. I think FX should eventually come around to fixing that if it hasn't already and maybe I missed an update.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    A little while ago I've started making a new_game+ campaign for DK1, dropping all the hints and just a few modifications in each level to make it worthwhile. I think later this year I'll have some time to finish, and who, perhaps afterwards I'll design a map myself - it's not too far off from what I used to do for a living - but that would still be quite the effort since there is no real template of what makes a DK1 map interesting.
    Ironically, it's probably easier to make DK2 maps more interesting despite it taking much more effort, creativity, and time. So long as you're willing to put in those elements to the map, you can create whatever you want because you have more advanced tools at your disposal. Hell, the ability to customize terrain, creature, room, etc data and change certain DK2 rules on a map by map basis is quite insane considering all of DK2's other problems.

    With DK1, your tools are more simple, so it's hard to make something that really stands out. From my experience, a lot of it is in clever map design since DK1 can't be as script heavy. For that reason alone, I could probably create DK1 maps much faster than DK2 maps.

    * * * * * * *

    Random note. I just suddenly remembered I have an unfinished possession map somewhere where you have this one Thief or something, and you go around into a series of mini dungeons to recruit more creatures. Then you use those members to gain access to other dungeons to recruit more creatures. I think I planned to end it where you have like 10 creatures and have to battle an enemy Keeper after all that. I think it's called Quest or something. Definitely an interesting and creative piece of work. I really liked making possession maps in DK1.

    Edit:
    My posts are increasing in length quite dramatically!
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; August 9th, 2014 at 19:04.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Imprison (The Level)

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Anyways, provided that the hit formula is essentially this, even if you have the Defense values lowered to properly match the Dexterity values, the problem is that there is too little variance between creatures. Due to the fact that their values are so low (every 26 points of difference between Dexterity and Defense is ~10% difference in hit chance), unit hit chances won't stray too far from the base line. Most units will have 40-60% to hit across the board. That's incredibly boring. The variance will only come when a unit outlevels an opponent severely, but then they're already dead so yeah.

    My idea to make better and more interesting hit chances to allow for more possibilities for unit strengths / weaknesses is to return the Dexterity / Defense values to their original form but then remove or severely reduce the growth of such values (like 5 for both if they're not removed). This way, you have that variance to better identify some units as being more or less accurate than others (Bile Demons vs Samurai for instance is a major difference). The removal of the growth value is to not only avoid ridiculous hit / miss situations as units level, but to also prevent hitting that 255 cap to retain that difference in values.

    This is a bit of a ramble, and maybe I should put it in its own thread for discussion / grab Mefisto's attention better, but it's something that I noticed and felt like mentioning as you referred to simple modifications making larger impact.
    This is where you and I have chosen different paths in live. I agree with you that the combat in DK has no dept to it, I've never really enjoyed the combat in DK - 1 or 2, so I've simply never considered it a game about the combat. For all I care they remove defence/dexterity statistics completely, and only have HP and Damage statistics. As it stands I think that would even be an improvement. Given this, I simply consider the combat as irrelevant to the game, as the dice-roll at the end to show you've made a good-enough dungeon.

    That being said, there are so many bugs in both games, and so many ways to improve upon the design, adding layers of dept and strategy. Not only combat, but also in the way you acquire your creature composition or build your dungeon. A sequel could expand on that greatly, back when it looked like WftO was in Beta, I made some suggestions there, like creature synergies, giving creatures a purpose beyond combat(getting a better dungeon/higher tier units) and map-based unit compositions. But I think that would be the place for such improvements, in a sequel. When patching a game, you'll have to focus on the core of what makes it fun, then find out which issues inhibit that fun and what is missing in making it more fun, and changing that.

    For me, DK1's key strength is dungeon management, and apparently, for you the strength of DK2 is the combat.

    That's why I say, DK1 for a large part needs better maps. I think the core element of a good but basic map, would be a timing constraint and interesting limitations in building your dungeon. Timing constraint could simply be limited gold or impending hero attack, but also something like a rival keeper that will accomplish something at some point. That timing constraint will force the player to balance sitting back and training, and pushing onward facing danger. A better map will string multiple of these like checkpoints, at each point providing tension, giving the player a sense of accomplishment when reached and a reward in the sense of a new benefit (room, creature, spell, whatever), which is helpful/needed in accomplishing the next goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    If there is one thing I'd like to see from FX, it's either an increase to the limit of things like IF statements or a removal to it entirely. That's one of the reasons why DK1 maps have to remain relatively simple, and one of the ways that DK2 has it better than Dk1. There's only so much you can do with a map before you suffer from technical limitations, something I've encountered several times before that limited some of my unfinished maps.

    [...] the limits in things like IF commands or ADD_TUNNELLER_PARTY_TO_LEVEL certainly don't help the situation either. I think FX should eventually come around to fixing that if it hasn't already and maybe I missed an update.
    The limit is still there, I wonder removing it would still be worthwhile. Even though it is an obvious improvement, I'm not sure it will see much if any use. It's not like there's 10 mapmakers waiting to get cracking once those limitations are gone because they've made the absolute most of what the current game has to offer.

    Currently Mefisto is the only one working on the game, being developer, tester and designer in one, and as it's his hobby not his job he rightfully so picks up the tasks he prefers doing, and often his priority is in rewriting the original and fixing any technical bugs, over introducing fundamental enhancements and removing fundamental flaws.
    Personally, unless there would be some real commitment that new mapmaking features would be used, I would put some focus on getting rid of some of the most annoying issues, including a bit of creature balance, and improvements to the AI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    With DK1, your tools are more simple, so it's hard to make something that really stands out. From my experience, a lot of it is in clever map design since DK1 can't be as script heavy. For that reason alone, I could probably create DK1 maps much faster than DK2 maps.
    Some of the best designs in any fields come from having to work with a clear set of limitations.

Similar Threads

  1. Bonus level 5 / lost level patch
    By Manstie in forum Dungeon Keeper 1
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: January 8th, 2014, 22:58
  2. AI creature imprison bug
    By `ETCH in forum KeeperFX
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: July 2nd, 2011, 21:30
  3. -level how?
    By karoshio in forum Dungeon Keeper 2
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 3rd, 2010, 07:38

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •