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Thread: Dragons are the worst creature in game

  
  1. #11
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Could you elaborate a bit on why you went for damage increases per level on top of the strength increase, but kept the armour increase on 0?
    The fact that damage and strength are coupled for melee attack is strange. It makes sense in the code, but leads to unneccesary complication in the stats. I will decouple them.
    Armour was always constant, I just didn't feel a need to change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Also, is it deliberate that when you look at the creature stats ingame it always shows the base values instead of the current values, and would you be open to change that?
    I think it does show real values; which stat are you referring to?

  2. #12
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    Can you change spell stats for each creature or do you change the spell stats for all creatures?
    It effects all creatures globally. They all refer to the same spell data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    if the latter is the case then increasing the damage of flamebreath will also affect the Hound, which in my opinion is fine now.
    You raise a fair point about Hell Hounds also being effected, however, I will still fall back on my previous point that Flame Breath needs a damage boost to keep up with other forms of melee damage as it no longer stops at 255. The Hell Hound was also negatively effected by the spell damage nerfs and is a later game unit with the Scavenger Room attraction as he stands now, so giving him a minor buff like this doesn't make too much of a difference.

    While it is true that the Hell Hound makes better use of Flame Breath for damage compared to the Dragon due to his Speed spell, the Hell Hound is meant to be kind of a glass cannon that way and is also quite squishy. He's all about mixing melee / Flame Breath + Speed for constant damage. He's actually like a melee version of the Dark Mistress: a DPS blitzer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    Why not give the Dragon Melee attack at level 5 or so. I mean he has claws, so why not use them.. This makes him more useful in combat.
    Realism does not build balance. I told that to DragonsLover as well as he made a number of changes based on realism, such as the Hell Hound's Fireball to add onto his Flame Breath. But these changes aren't always good.

    In the specific case of the Hell Hound, I can easily argue that its counterproductive as it, especially now, doesn't deal much damage and only works towards slowing the Hell Hound down. He's supposed to rush opponents as he is a blitzer as mentioned. His damage is specifically DPS focused while also being a melee unit, so most spells don't really suit him as they're either burst damage or meant for long range casting.

    As for the Dragon, he was never meant to deal damage, not even in vanilla. I think I made it clear in my previous posts that the Dragon is a Heal / Armor Tank. So giving him melee attacks only pushes him away from not only his original concept but also his current position as a unique unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    I think his armor and health is fine, he just needs a little more punch.
    If every unit is simply designed to deal damage, then there isn't a whole lot of variety to spread around to 27 units, is there? (not counting Imp, Tunneller, and Avatar)

    I've encountered this same attitude with the Vampire and people complaining about him because he has low damage output and doesn't kill things in any in any strong direct or more immediate fashion. I've always found that behavior to be both simple minded and annoying. Just because a Creature doesn't deal loads of damage doesn't make him weak. The Dragon is meant to tank the enemy's damage and nullify it as useless while other melee fighters and support creatures unleash their own damage upon the enemy to destroy them. It's as simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    Adding protect is kinda silly, it's not something a dragon would use, rather give him a small armor boost instead.
    I think that's not only a silly reason to stand against the addition of Protect but also incorrect in general. Protect is magical. The Dragon has high natural armor due to his scales and general being. He then casts Protect magic over himself to amplify his defenses, making him practically invincible to enemy attacks and further builds his image as this powerful and great Dragon. It makes perfect sense as to why he would use Protect.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I'm not arguing heal should change, but it could work with e.g. always heal 33% of max health, but the creatures would need to be balanced around the spell. This way the effectiveness would scale with level, instead of the current situation where it strongly decreases in usefulness, on for example high level dragons.
    Perhaps the rebalancing / reworking needs to be on Keeper Heal spell itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    But, like said, I wouldn't really mind defense on the dragon, thematically that is kinda OK, but I'd still like to see the defense more like an innate ability. The result of much higher armor and no protect, or a bit higher armor and the protect spell is more or less the same.
    Well, referring to my above mentioned statement of how Dragons use magic to further enhance their defensive capabilities...

    From a lore stand point, the use of a Protect spell creates a separater between younger Dragons and those who are more ancient. The latter are more powerful due to knowledge gained over the years as they can utilize magical powers to make themselves stronger than youth.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    In one case the early game dragons don't get a boost, but that is compensated by a situational boost in the form of lightning resistance later on(why is a dragon lightning resistant?).
    Well Lightning is a powerful form of magic and it says a lot for the Dragon's own magical power and resistance if he can simply negate it. Although, Lightning resistance is kind of inevitable on high armor units. It does run into logic errors when you apply it to the Knight.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Fair enough. Point is, wouldn't hurt to give the dragons an early game boost as well.
    The solution I gave for the Dragon is theoretical. I'm not exactly sure how powerful it'll make him overall nor how strong he'll be at certain points in the game. He could need more early game usefulness or he could be powerful enough in the late game that he needs an early game weakness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    (Still I think it's fine as it is..)
    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Could you elaborate on why do you think the dragon is currently fine? Do you approve with the fact that a level 10 dragon is defeated by a level 8 hell hound? Or a level 9 dragon is defeated by a level 5 spider?
    I'm not surprised by Krizzie's current stance on things as I know he's always been reluctant to see these kind of statistical changes in FX whenever he expressed his opinion. He's argue things like how Keeper Lightning is balanced as it is or how the Dark Mistress is balanced because of a very situational exploit in the ranged AI where ranged creatures would back straight into a wall while being chased by a melee creature and get stuck there, forced to fight with melee.

    It's something to consider as he's sort of like an automatic vote against change. I'll still argue my points with him, but if the conversation starts getting redundant then I'm not going to bother.

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    Armour was always constant, I just didn't feel a need to change this.
    I most certainly agree with this notion, however I should point out that the Imp.cfg file does state that Armor grows with leveling.
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  3. #13
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I most certainly agree with this notion, however I should point out that the Imp.cfg file does state that Armor grows with leveling.
    I will fix that comment. This can be easily changed, but currently there's no increase factor for two parameters:
    Code:
    #define compute_creature_max_luck compute_creature_max_unaffected
    #define compute_creature_max_armour compute_creature_max_unaffected

  4. #14

    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    The fact that damage and strength are coupled for melee attack is strange. It makes sense in the code, but leads to unnecessary complication in the stats. I will decouple them.
    How do you mean? It makes sense for strenght to determine how much melee damage a creature does. What does not make sense is for the strength to grow each level, and also have the way each strenght point affect how much damage a creature does grow per level.

    In any case, I'll retest the dragons effectiveness after this decoupling, as I expect to see reduced damage across the board.

    Edit: I looked at the change you made, makes sense. I'll retest how the dragons match up against other creatures tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    I will fix that comment. This can be easily changed, but currently there's no increase factor for two parameters:
    Code:
    #define compute_creature_max_luck compute_creature_max_unaffected
    #define compute_creature_max_armour compute_creature_max_unaffected
    I checked, it is just the armor, and this was based on the file you linked:
    DefenseIncreaseOnExp = 20
    ; Percentage of creature loyalty increase for every experience level

    I'm also happy for defense not to increase per level, so changing the doc seems like the way to go.
    Last edited by YourMaster; August 18th, 2014 at 17:58.

  5. #15
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    How do you mean? It makes sense for strenght to determine how much melee damage a creature does. What does not make sense is for the strength to grow each level, and also have the way each strenght point affect how much damage a creature does grow per level.
    What? I'm afraid now I do not understand what you mean.

    It does make sense for Strength to grow depending on base value as it allows proper scaling between Creatures at higher levels.

    I think Mefisto is referring to the fact that there is a damage growth that, apparently, effects not only spells but also melee attacks. This is an issue as there is already a Strength growth for melee attacks, so that means melee attackers are getting two stat growths to increase their damage while spell casters are getting only one, and the much smaller value at that. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I checked, it is just the armor, and this was based on the file you linked:
    DefenseIncreaseOnExp = 20
    ; Percentage of creature loyalty increase for every experience level

    I'm also happy for defense not to increase per level, so changing the doc seems like the way to go.
    Defense does increase on growth, it says a bonus 20% of base value in the quote you linked.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    What? I'm afraid now I do not understand what you mean.

    It does make sense for Strength to grow depending on base value as it allows proper scaling between Creatures at higher levels.

    I think Mefisto is referring to the fact that there is a damage growth that, apparently, effects not only spells but also melee attacks. This is an issue as there is already a Strength growth for melee attacks, so that means melee attackers are getting two stat growths to increase their damage while spell casters are getting only one, and the much smaller value at that. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here.
    We are all saying the same thing. Strengh should affect damage, which grows on level. No need for a further 'Damage increase on level' stat. This has just been changed to 'Spell damage increase on level'.
    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Defense does increase on growth, it says a bonus 20% of base value in the quote you linked.
    Ok, I know why I kept getting confused, all the values and descriptions are messed up:

    * No mouse over on how much hitpoints there are
    * Strength shows a strength icon, but it is described as 'How much damage'. Close enough.
    * The Armour Icon gives the Defense description, but the armour value.
    * The 'time in dungeon Icon' shows the 'skill' description, telling how good the creature is at a certain task. It shows the defense value.
    * The dexterity item has the 'Time in dungeon' text. I have no idea where the value comes from, but it not the time in dungeon.
    * The Defense Icon gives the dexterity value and description
    * Luck goes well. I don't know if bloodtype does anything.
    Last edited by YourMaster; August 18th, 2014 at 21:19. Reason: corrected descriptions.

  7. #17
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Ok, I know why I kept getting confused, all the values and descriptions are messed up:

    * No mouse over on how much hitpoints there are
    * Strength shows a strength icon, but it is described as 'How much damage'. Close enough.
    * The Defence Icon and description gives the armour value.
    * The 'time in dungeon Icon' shows the 'skill' description, telling how good the creature is at a certain task. It shows the defense value.
    * The dexterity item has the 'Time in dungeon' text. I have no idea where the value comes from, but it not the time in dungeon.
    * The Defense Icon gives the dexterity value and description
    * Luck goes well. I don't know if bloodtype does anything.
    The stats have always been kind of messed up and didn't properly explain / display stats, something that should be changed surely, but it looks like now the texts have been screwed up. How did that happen?
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The stats have always been kind of messed up and didn't properly explain / display stats, something that should be changed surely, but it looks like now the texts have been screwed up. How did that happen?
    I don't know. I updated my descriptions a bit, made a mistake.

    This is it now:
    Attachment 1494

  9. #19

    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The stats have always been kind of messed up and didn't properly explain / display stats, something that should be changed surely, but it looks like now the texts have been screwed up. How did that happen?
    They are fixed now, much better. Even fixed compared to vanilla.

    And back on topic, the removal of 'IncreasedDamage' on top of strenght has had an even bigger impact on the dragon than I would have had expected. My guess is this change has a huge impact all around.

    Needs a lot more testing before making further balance modifcations.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Dragons are the worst creature in game

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I'm not surprised by Krizzie's current stance on things as I know he's always been reluctant to see these kind of statistical changes in FX whenever he expressed his opinion.

    It's something to consider as he's sort of like an automatic vote against change. I'll still argue my points with him, but if the conversation starts getting redundant then I'm not going to bother.
    I have no problems with change, as long as it keeps close to the original game. Adding/removing skills is something I'm not a fan of. Just as you pointed out.

    The mentioned changes for the Dragon are getting more of a personal taste thing than just "fixing" something.

    So I would search for a "fix" in the stats of the Dragon and not in adding spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    whenever he expressed his opinion.
    Everything here is based on opinions, I get the feeling you think yours has a higher weight than those of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    He's argue things like how Keeper Lightning is balanced as it is or how the Dark Mistress is balanced because of a very situational exploit in the ranged AI where ranged creatures would back straight into a wall while being chased by a melee creature and get stuck there, forced to fight with melee.
    Er, when did I say this?

    Exploits, bugs, errors, mistakes should be fixed. If the fixes cause new problems then these should be discussed.


    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    The fact that damage and strength are coupled for melee attack is strange. It makes sense in the code, but leads to unneccesary complication in the stats. I will decouple them.
    Armour was always constant, I just didn't feel a need to change this.
    So you could make Armor increase by level? Can you also change the percentage of increase? Cause the normal 35% of the base value per level is a bit much I guess..

    If that is the case then that could be an ideal fix. The higher the level the higher the Armor gets.



    [Sarcasm] Why doesn't the Dragon have the fly ablity, he has wings and all other Dragons can fly, so why can't he?
    Last edited by Krizzie; August 19th, 2014 at 14:56.

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