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Thread: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

  
  1. #1
    Beetle
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    Default Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    In the thread related to dragonslover's patch, Wyrmcast made a criticism of MGR:

    "If your supposed 'expert balance advice' to DragonsLover was anything as ludicrous, passive-aggressive and long-winded as your advice to me, I can see why he hasn't even wanted to sign in to this forum since April. I can only suggest that you stick to working on your own projects instead of giving useless, tactless destructive criticism to others."

    This elicited a predictably long winded and flawed riposte:

    "As usual, you couldn't be more wrong with your baseless accusations or arguments. DL's absence from KK has nothing to do with the discussions we had, considering that they ended over a year, maybe even about two years ago depending on what discussions you consider to be relevant. DL has stayed around for much longer, even after I became more or less absent from the DK1 scene as I moved more towards working on the DK2 patch. His disappearance is completely unrelated to me. Last time I checked, we're on pretty good terms and I think he's a pretty decent fellow.

    It's pretty hypocritical to make such accusations towards me, when here you are, hopping on a developed thread for the first time, after being gone for months, only to criticize me without anything to add to relevant discussion. Your 'criticism' isn't even that, it leans closer towards an attack to damage my character and reputation, especially given the context of which you post in.

    Check your own facts first before you make accusations like that. Even if you do, don't even bother joining into a discussion when all you have to offer is 'criticism' on an individual's personal character, as all you're doing at that point is starting a flame war. This last statement is not a request from a normal user, it is an order from a staff member. Any replies you have to this need to be taken elsewhere, this thread is not the place for that.

    I will remove any additional posts made here that is not relevant to the thread's topic.
    "

    It hardly seems necessary to wade through this rather shrill response. I have been on the receiving end of this behaviour myself. It should be obvious that any dispute in a thread with a moderator cannot be umpired by that moderator? In my own case, my defence of my actions was edited and/or removed, rendering it impossible to defend oneself in front of this community adequately. I would like to know how many others have been treated similarly? He uses the phrase 'flame war' to justify these actions.

    I happen to believe that MGR has a case to answer for being negative and unhelpful and stifling this community. If unchecked this place will become a desert. Is it MGR's personal fiefdom or an open forum? I also question if he has the maturity to be a moderator.

    And the big question - will he delete this post?

    dayokay

  2. #2

    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    Isn't that exactly the point,... the tread wasn't about MGR or his behavior, but about the state of DL KeeperFX patch. Wyrmcast and you tried to change the topic to something else.

    He did not moderate a thread about himself, he moderated one about Dungeon Keeper.

  3. #3
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    I've noticed you didn't bother to link back to the original posts or threads, instead just taking a few quotes. So I'll take it upon myself to give better context to the situation for anyone reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    In the thread related to dragonslover's patch, Wyrmcast made a criticism of MGR:
    This is the original thread: [Link]

    This is the post where the relevant discussion began: [Link]

    As the above linked post mentions, prior discussion / posts were over a year ago, so the post initiating the conversation is bringing the thread back for discussion related to both KeeperFX and DragonsLover's patch, which is currently implemented into FX. The discussion that followed is in regards to DragonsLover's patch and his activity between YourMaster and I. However, Wyrmcast suddenly entered the conversation with the following post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmcast View Post
    If your supposed 'expert balance advice' to DragonsLover was anything as ludicrous, passive-aggressive and long-winded as your advice to me, I can see why he hasn't even wanted to sign in to this forum since April. I can only suggest that you stick to working on your own projects instead of giving useless, tactless destructive criticism to others.
    This then prompted my own response, which I attached at the end of a post in response to YourMaster as apart of the original discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    As usual, you couldn't be more wrong with your baseless accusations or arguments. DL's absence from KK has nothing to do with the discussions we had, considering that they ended over a year, maybe even about two years ago depending on what discussions you consider to be relevant. DL has stayed around for much longer, even after I became more or less absent from the DK1 scene as I moved more towards working on the DK2 patch. His disappearance is completely unrelated to me. Last time I checked, we're on pretty good terms and I think he's a pretty decent fellow.

    It's pretty hypocritical to make such accusations towards me, when here you are, hopping on a developed thread for the first time, after being gone for months, only to criticize me without anything to add to relevant discussion. Your 'criticism' isn't even that, it leans closer towards an attack to damage my character and reputation, especially given the context of which you post in.

    Check your own facts first before you make accusations like that. Even if you do, don't even bother joining into a discussion when all you have to offer is 'criticism' on an individual's personal character, as all you're doing at that point is starting a flame war. This last statement is not a request from a normal user, it is an order from a staff member. Any replies you have to this need to be taken elsewhere, this thread is not the place for that.

    I will remove any additional posts made here that is not relevant to the thread's topic.
    Now if you're following the thread up until the post by Wyrmcast, you'll notice that his post is very much out of place as it is extremely irrelevant to not only the thread's original topic but also the discussion going on between YourMaster and I at that time.

    Wyrmcast's post is not only irrelevant but can also easily be interpreted as a more personal attack on either my character or reputation. It can even be interpreted as harassment ;nothing prompted him to post and when he did, he did not add anything to the discussion but simply began criticizing me on a personal level.

    I do believe I have a right to defend myself and my reputation, seeing as anyone could come in and read the thread, then develop a wrongful interpretation of me based on Wyrmcast's accusations, hence my response. However, it is also true that this new discussion is in no way relevant to the discussion and is also very much inappropriate, which is why I firmly told Wyrmcast that any additional responses need to be taken elsewhere.

    I did originally consider removing the two posts (Wyrmcast's original post and dayokay's followup post, which is him cheering Wyrmcast on) due to them being irrelevant and stepping into flame war territory, however, I felt it wasn't quite so bad yet and decided to just give my response. I've known Wyrmcast to make a lot of baseless claims before in many different scenarios, so I wanted to respond to him about this. I also wanted to remove the notion that DragonsLover left KeeperKlan because of me, which is what Wyrmcast claimed, as it held no water and all evidence supports otherwise.

    I also suspected that if I removed the posts, either Wyrmcast or dayokay would make a case about me abusing my moderator powers when I'd really only be doing my job in removing completely irrelevant posts that could also lead to a personal flame war.


    * * * * * * * * * *


    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    It hardly seems necessary to wade through this rather shrill response. I have been on the receiving end of this behaviour myself. It should be obvious that any dispute in a thread with a moderator cannot be umpired by that moderator? In my own case, my defence of my actions was edited and/or removed, rendering it impossible to defend oneself in front of this community adequately. I would like to know how many others have been treated similarly? He uses the phrase 'flame war' to justify these actions.
    This is the thread that dayokay is referring to: [Link]

    This is a thread regarding the results of a Survey about KeeperFX, mostly regarding custom Campaigns.

    The discussion is pretty easy to follow, but the posts of relevance begin with Mothrayas' first and second post, then dayokay's response. Follow Moth and day's posts up and watch as things escalate until my next post, which is here.

    The most relevant part of my post is the top part, as I am responding to the attitude being displayed. The rest is in response to other things going on the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I cannot pretend to even remotely understand the aggression towards Moth.

    Moth has pointed out a very important contradiction with the Poll results, which I then jumped on to prove that there may very well be something wrong with the survey regarding question 4 about the priority of new features and the survey as a whole, in that there seems to be a bias towards new campaigns as it comes up very frequently. Moth also shares views with others, especially myself, that have been openly expressed in this thread and others, regarding the issues with fan campaigns. If anything, I was the one who openly insulted what I'd consider to be the average level designer, which is the basis of most if not all the negativity towards fan campaigns.

    The attitude towards Moth seems quite frankly uncalled for. All he's doing is voicing his opinions on the matter, and even stating that those are his views. You should never shut out a person's voice because he says something you disagree with or do not want to hear, which is the only attitude I'm seeing now from you, dayokay. All that can ever accomplish is create a limitation on something or someone's potential. I will not tolerate any more of it.
    I normally would not have bothered with this kind of post, however, I noticed that dayokay seemed to have an attitude against specifically Moth, as my opening statement reflects. I found this unfair and so in response, I made this post. However, dayokay ended up replying with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I cannot pretend to even remotely understand the aggression towards Moth......

    ...The attitude towards Moth seems quite frankly uncalled for. All he's doing is voicing his opinions on the matter, and even stating that those are his views. You should never shut out a person's voice because he says something you disagree with or do not want to hear, which is the only attitude I'm seeing now from you, dayokay. All that can ever accomplish is create a limitation on something or someone's potential. I will not tolerate any more of it..
    What is happening here? Are you his dad? I told him what I thought, he told me what he thought. It's done. Aggression?! Where do you fit in? And the idea that you can lecture me on "create a limitation on something or someone's potential" - are you for real? I have read a lot of this forum, and the rudest person on here is not difficult to identify.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I will not tolerate any more of it..
    Is this your forum? Are you threatening to exclude me? Extraordinary. As well as a largely negative view, it would seem that any deviation from your established orthodoxy generates a wave? To quote Moth, would you rather I kiss your ass instead?

    The survey reveals a number of people who have views that differ with yours. Don't panic - embrace the diversity. If you're right, as you no doubt always are, no campaign will result, and your smugness is enhanced, despite no additional campaigns. If you're wrong, a good campaign could result, and you'd have the option to play it. It's difficult to see a downside.

    At the risk of returning to the topic in hand, on reflection, I'm not sure a campaign compiled from single maps would be the best way to go. As Wyrmcast says, improving existing campaigns would probably be the best way. This does raise the issue of modifying others' work though, and that would need resolving.

    dayokay
    I found dayokay's response to be extremely aggressive and completely inappropriate. In response, yes I did edit it to remove the unnecessary aggressive content, as it seemed like it would only lead to a flame war, changing it to what it is now. I also gave him a warning in response.

    In the case that people think there are any 'shenanigans' going on, here is a screenshot of the edit history:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dayokay.PNG 
Views:	15 
Size:	207.1 KB 
ID:	1525

    I think it is important to note that I do in fact have a history with Mothrayas, but it's been overall less than pleasant, involving a lot of arguments even if there were some happier moments in-between. I do feel that Moth has, in the more distant past, made some inappropriate and unnecessary remarks about me, and they were just as irrelevant as Wyrmcast's remarks in the DragonsLover patch thread, if not even more so. Just to show how inappropriate they were. I hadn't even posted or been mentioned in any way in the threads of which he made such remarks. I was not exactly happy to see these comments, hence why I still remember those moments now even.

    I'm not saying this to point a finger at Moth, as I do not believe he would do the same thing today, but it is worth noting to show that I have no bias in the above situation involving dayokay. I had never seen dayokay do anything bad and had some decent discussions with him prior, so I really had nothing against him. Yet, I still have more of a bad history with Moth.

    Meaning: if I were to have any bias in that situation, it would have been against Moth and the situation would have turned out differently, with me either remaining idle by or scolding Moth.


    * * * * * * * * * *


    This is the context of situation and about as big of a response as it'll receive from me. I'll be notifying dotted about this thread's existence and getting his thoughts on the situation.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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  4. #4
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    As one of the remaining members who still remember the "old" keeperklan, I can say that MGR is one of the most knowledgeable people in the DK universe. He seems to also have good game design and balance skills, and did some interesting maps. I so far am looking forward to his patch, as I believe that it will be a high quality product.
    Back when I was an active developer myself, I trolled him once in a while as he was as detailed in arguments and flamewars as he is in game design, that was quite funny However, even if he appears arrogant and calls things by their names, he is most probably right.
    Please, refer to pages 1, 2, 3, 4, when patch discussion was between Dragonslover and MGR. Look at the form of the dialogue. It is a constructive, bounced back and forth conversation.
    Now about Wyrmcast. He's a great guy with good intentions, but limited knowledge about the universe. So when someone like MGR comes in and tries to help (with his attitude), it may look as an attack. It is not. Therefore, Wyrmcast comes to the topic, and projects his experience with MGR on the thread where MGR and Dragonslover made a lot of progress discussing things together. This looks uncalled for to me.
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  5. #5
    Beetle
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    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    A predictably colossal reply. At least you did me the courtesy of not deleting my post. Your blathering is of no interest to me. The fact is you are rude. If you were one of those people who can take it as well as dish it out, that would be something, but you are not. You are incredibly self-obsessed.

    As to your knowledge, I completely accept that you are an expert on all things Keeper related, both DK1 and DK2. Makes it more of a shame that you are not more engaging and supportive to those who want to contribute. I ran a survey last year to try and galvanise some focus for DK1, but the negativity of yourself and your supporters quickly persuaded me that I was wasting my time.

    I am glad you have (elaborately) re-lived the thread that annoyed me. Others may judge for themselves both of our postings.

    "This last statement is not a request from a normal user, it is an order from a staff member. " Are you for real? You decide what is off-topic and issue farcical 'edicts'!

    I suggest you put some effort into self-reflection rather than a pedant's line-by-line rebuttal. What do you suppose my motivation is?

    dayokay

  6. #6

    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    A predictably colossal reply. At least you did me the courtesy of not deleting my post. Your blathering is of no interest to me. The fact is you are rude. If you were one of those people who can take it as well as dish it out, that would be something, but you are not. You are incredibly self-obsessed.

    As to your knowledge, I completely accept that you are an expert on all things Keeper related, both DK1 and DK2. Makes it more of a shame that you are not more engaging and supportive to those who want to contribute. I ran a survey last year to try and galvanise some focus for DK1, but the negativity of yourself and your supporters quickly persuaded me that I was wasting my time.

    I am glad you have (elaborately) re-lived the thread that annoyed me. Others may judge for themselves both of our postings.

    "This last statement is not a request from a normal user, it is an order from a staff member. " Are you for real? You decide what is off-topic and issue farcical 'edicts'!

    I suggest you put some effort into self-reflection rather than a pedant's line-by-line rebuttal. What do you suppose my motivation is?

    dayokay
    Notice even in that tread he didn't call your post 'blathering' or said anything negative about you. He did say he didn't think your idea was the best approach to improve he game, but isn't that simply being helpful, giving his opinion on how to proceed?

    And now that you're talking about self-reflection,... do you really think those two comments in the last tread were in fact on-topic?
    I understand you've got your feelings hurt a little while ago by MGR, but in the topic at hand he was being helpful.

  7. #7
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    Your blathering is of no interest to me.
    If you are not interested in Metal Gear Rex writing anything or defending his side, then obviously you already have preconceived notions about this topic rather than any intent of discussing the topic subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    The fact is you are rude.
    Posting a thread to call out an user to then ignore everything he writes in self-defense is rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    If you were one of those people who can take it as well as dish it out, that would be something, but you are not.
    I find you saying this ironic, as obviously you can't take anything Rex writes very well. Your own posts highlight this.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    You are incredibly self-obsessed.
    This is blatantly baseless ad hominem.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    I ran a survey last year to try and galvanise some focus for DK1, but the negativity of yourself and your supporters quickly persuaded me that I was wasting my time.
    Are you calling me a Metal Gear Rex "supporter"? I find that notion funny, especially considering what Rex said above about me. If anything it was the other way around in that topic; I never said a single thing towards or about Rex in that topic.

    Also, if you want to say I'm supporting Rex in this topic -- I'm not here to support Rex, I'm here to cut out and call out bullshit where I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    I am glad you have (elaborately) re-lived the thread that annoyed me. Others may judge for themselves both of our postings.
    The reason he did it, complete with original quotes and links, is transparency. Picking just selected quotes very easily leads to bias, smudging, reading things out of context and outright lies. I'm not saying any of that happened here, but the bottom line is, it is courteous to provide sources, which is what Rex did.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    "This last statement is not a request from a normal user, it is an order from a staff member. " Are you for real? You decide what is off-topic and issue farcical 'edicts'!
    Yes, that is exactly what a staff member and moderator's job is. Though "farcical 'edicts'" is in the eye of the beholder.

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    I suggest you put some effort into self-reflection rather than a pedant's line-by-line rebuttal.
    That was not a "pedant's line-by-line rebuttal". The only things he did was separate past quotes from this topic's quotes.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; October 6th, 2014 at 10:24.

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    Split up an already tiny and fragmented community over internet slap-fights and forum 'honour'? Please no.

  9. #9
    Skull dotted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Inappropriate Moderator Behaviour

    I have a very hard time responding to this, because I lack a lot of context outside of what has already been linked in this thread.

    First of all I disagree with the notion that Metal Gear Rex acted in any way inappropriately, or at the very least in a way that requires my intervention. His reasons for his actions seems consistent with the content he performed moderation on. Looking at the edited post I find it perfectly defensible to remove parts of the post in order to avoid starting a flame war. Should he have done so preemptively? I don't think there is an objective answer to this, and the rules as they are written now currently allows for moderators to edit post indiscriminately.

    As I see it, this is a storm in a teacup and going any further seems to be pointless. However a worthwhile debate could be about how moderators should deal with (potential) flame wars in the future. Should they, as they do now, act based on their own judgement within the confines of the rules, or should they let it play out and in the event it turns into a flamewar remove the offending posts? If you want to discuss this, I suggest making a new thread.

    On an added note, I've changed the color for the nicknames of staff members to make them distinguished from regular posters, hopefully this helps avoiding any confusion as to who is a staff member and who isn't.

    Finally I'm closing this thread, complaints about staff must be dealt with in private (as per rules), so if anyone has anything to add to this specific case please PM me and we can talk in private. If you dislike this rule, I again suggest making a new thread discussing that.

    Best regards
    dotted
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