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Thread: Skybird Trill

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    In time (use frameskip) blue will run out of gold and his vamps will leave. There are no gems on his side, and with workshops alone he can't sustain such a big vamp army.

    With some clever 1st person play you can also (slowly) kill him by attacking is heart. I know, with the new AI it will drop everything as soon as you hit the heart with a melee attack, but if you keep your distance and use a creature with drain or lightning you can kill the heart without him dropping a single creature.
    Maybe not the nicest way to win, but straight up you're never going to win until he runs out of gold.
    He has 2,460,000 gold!
    My suggestion was easier, just attack the front door, and use an avatar or horny to destroy the heart. When already attacking, the keeper won't defend his heart.

    Still, the question was a way to actually fight the army of blue and win,... really bad that there is no way to do so.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    So you did manage to capture both Avatars?

    But yeah, vampires are by far the most powerful creatures in the game. They don't deal a lot of damage fast, and they will die against wizards for example, but in these numbers basically the only thing that could defeat them is a larger army of vampires.

    That leaves the heart snipe, or a very long game, which will take many hours, trying to lure the occasional vampire.
    Yup, possessed a dragon, only took 2 word of powers to knock him over the lava. The wizard thing; I was just going to say. I actually tested it on the map with those 4 level 8 wizards in the northern part (forget the map name sorry, it's 4-5 level 8 wizards in a room at the northern middle point of the map) tested the same amount of vampires against them also level 8 and the vampires got destroyed. Up until that point I thought vampires were strong but that changed my mind, but then again they do have the lair respawn. But I guess in this situation it is the numbers that makes them so strong. Reckon an equal amount of wizards of the same level would beat them? or do they get incredibly strong at level 10? I watched a guy doing a lets play and he basically stood from a distance using meteor or fireball on the avatar from the prison into the heart and the AI didn't even react.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krizzie View Post
    In time (use frameskip) blue will run out of gold and his vamps will leave. There are no gems on his side, and with workshops alone he can't sustain such a big vamp army.

    With some clever 1st person play you can also (slowly) kill him by attacking is heart. I know, with the new AI it will drop everything as soon as you hit the heart with a melee attack, but if you keep your distance and use a creature with drain or lightning you can kill the heart without him dropping a single creature.
    Maybe not the nicest way to win, but straight up you're never going to win until he runs out of gold.
    That's exactly what I did, but it just felt cheap. I would run in with a horny, hit it 3 or so times, get him out, use the other horny or the avatar and rinse repeat. Taking advantage of the AI and mechanics in a game that is almost 2 decades old didn't really make it feel worth it, even though the mod does make the game a lot more difficult.
    Last edited by noelm; October 26th, 2014 at 23:43.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by noelm View Post
    Yup, possessed a dragon, only took 2 word of powers to knock him over the lava. The wizard thing; I was just going to say. I actually tested it on the map with those 4 level 8 wizards in the northern part (forget the map name sorry, it's 4-5 level 8 wizards in a room at the northern middle point of the map) tested the same amount of vampires against them also level 8 and the vampires got destroyed. Up until that point I thought vampires were strong but that changed my mind, but then again they do have the lair respawn. But I guess in this situation it is the numbers that makes them so strong. Reckon an equal amount of wizards of the same level would beat them? or do they get incredibly strong at level 10? I watched a guy doing a lets play and he basically stood from a distance using meteor or fireball on the avatar from the prison into the heart and the AI didn't even react.
    Vampires are actually really strong, but there are proper counters to them. They have great defense, but weak offense. A wizard can out heal the damage, and do a lot of damage itself. It also rebounds the slow spell of the vampire. Two orcs will easily kill a wizard, while in turn the vampire would eat the orcs for breakfast.

    In level 20, you don't get creatures that do well against vampires: Ranged creatures with the heal spell and/or drain. You get bile_demons, dragons, and even mostly melee heroes, those all get destroyed by vampires. The rival keeper gets mistresses and warlocks, they would be a big help for you, but now they assist the vampires really well. A mistress just retreats behind a vampire and does massive damage to all your creatures.
    That would be another (boring) way to help you fight: Use lightning or collapse to kill off all the mistresses and warlocks. This causes your units to survive a lot longer.

    Still, the vampire is the best creature in the game, and almost no army can take on the one blue has.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Even with all of his mistresses/warlocks/dragons/bile demons dead, he literally just had an army of vampires and destroyed me. Maybe an army of wizards would do the trick but yeah now I think I agree about them being the best creature, in this mod horny just seems too expensive and he get's really stressful to babysit.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    He shouldn't have had bile_demons or dragons. You could have scavenged them all.

    Still,...they are little help with the vampires.

  6. #16

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Yeah, I did scavenge them all eventually after reloading and it was completely futile. An army of wizards are the only thing I could imagine to be able to beat them.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    I just quick played the map to refresh my memory. The player gets given A LOT of increase level specials (5). I just immediately built a lair/hatchery, dumped the biles into training, dragons onto research, expanded into the tentacles when I had ~7 level 3-4 bile demons and took over the hero castle. After that I just popped every increase level special and flagged my dragons/biles into their base. While the biles/drags tank, dump lightning on everything and after the initial dicksmash where most of the enemy keepers units have died, pull out the troops out and send them back in a few minutes later. The vampires are the only threat but if you just flag onto their heart, a few of your creatures will keep the two or three of them busy while the rest wail on the heart. The keeper was dead before I had even killed the Hero heart or gotten vision of the Avatar.

    If you didn't rush the enemy keeper and did the heroes first; converting the Wizards (freeze), Samurai (haste+freeze), Reapers (haste+big deeps) and Witch (EVERYBODY GET IN THE CORNER) should be more than enough to win the fight. I did convert the moat tentacles but because they're so squishy and they don't use their freeze unless they're in melee range, they don't really survive long enough to be useful. That said, if spiders were added to the creature pool, they'd be a lot more useful than the tentacles. They are the ultimate support creature and a handful of spiders throwing out constant slows and freezes will make short work of the vampires. Not to mention their hailstorm is like a shotgun in possession mode.

  8. #18

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by noelm View Post
    Yeah, I did scavenge them all eventually after reloading and it was completely futile. An army of wizards are the only thing I could imagine to be able to beat them.
    Or a larger army of vampires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    I just quick played the map to refresh my memory. The player gets given A LOT of increase level specials (5). I just immediately built a lair/hatchery, dumped the biles into training, dragons onto research, expanded into the tentacles when I had ~7 level 3-4 bile demons and took over the hero castle. After that I just popped every increase level special and flagged my dragons/biles into their base. While the biles/drags tank, dump lightning on everything and after the initial dicksmash where most of the enemy keepers units have died, pull out the troops out and send them back in a few minutes later. The vampires are the only threat but if you just flag onto their heart, a few of your creatures will keep the two or three of them busy while the rest wail on the heart. The keeper was dead before I had even killed the Hero heart or gotten vision of the Avatar.

    If you didn't rush the enemy keeper and did the heroes first; converting the Wizards (freeze), Samurai (haste+freeze), Reapers (haste+big deeps) and Witch (EVERYBODY GET IN THE CORNER) should be more than enough to win the fight. I did convert the moat tentacles but because they're so squishy and they don't use their freeze unless they're in melee range, they don't really survive long enough to be useful. That said, if spiders were added to the creature pool, they'd be a lot more useful than the tentacles. They are the ultimate support creature and a handful of spiders throwing out constant slows and freezes will make short work of the vampires. Not to mention their hailstorm is like a shotgun in possession mode.
    Rushing them would work yes, especially if you don't take out the hero heart. When you kill the heart, blue gets an additional level 10 vampire which he uses to scavenge more vampires.

    When not rushing, I doubt it works though, as eventually blue has up to 35 vampires, the few samurai, reapers and wizards you can convert just aren't enough against those numbers.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Or a larger army of vampires.



    Rushing them would work yes, especially if you don't take out the hero heart. When you kill the heart, blue gets an additional level 10 vampire which he uses to scavenge more vampires.

    When not rushing, I doubt it works though, as eventually blue has up to 35 vampires, the few samurai, reapers and wizards you can convert just aren't enough against those numbers.
    I agree. Also the losses you will sustain from having to manually kill the enemy heroes so you can imprison them will be really heavy.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    This is a common RTS complaint in general though. X is OP when massed because X is a hard to get, expensive lategame unit.
    If he's so hella OP because he has so many vamps, do the same back to him;

    Any hallway several tiles long,
    Door at both ends,
    Place a boulder at one end,
    Lock the doors,
    Spawn in a horde of imps,
    Slap the boulder,
    Unlock the door and haul the bodies off to the graveyard.

    Sacrifice imps in the temple to keep CREATE_IMP costs at 150 per use. You essentially have infinite gold when you have a workforce of 20-25 level 3 imps going at the gems 24/7. You'll spit out vampires faster than he can and can just out-scavenge him.

    It's only broken if it has no counterplay.

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