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Thread: Skybird Trill

  
  1. #21

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    This is a common RTS complaint in general though. X is OP when massed because X is a hard to get, expensive lategame unit.
    If he's so hella OP because he has so many vamps, do the same back to him;

    Any hallway several tiles long,
    Door at both ends,
    Place a boulder at one end,
    Lock the doors,
    Spawn in a horde of imps,
    Slap the boulder,
    Unlock the door and haul the bodies off to the graveyard.

    Sacrifice imps in the temple to keep CREATE_IMP costs at 150 per use. You essentially have infinite gold when you have a workforce of 20-25 level 3 imps going at the gems 24/7. You'll spit out vampires faster than he can and can just out-scavenge him.

    It's only broken if it has no counterplay.
    I disagree. I counted the time between having a vampire and the time it took him to scavenge it, it was maximum 5 seconds.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    This is a common RTS complaint in general though. X is OP when massed because X is a hard to get, expensive lategame unit.
    If he's so hella OP because he has so many vamps, do the same back to him;

    Any hallway several tiles long,
    Door at both ends,
    Place a boulder at one end,
    Lock the doors,
    Spawn in a horde of imps,
    Slap the boulder,
    Unlock the door and haul the bodies off to the graveyard.

    Sacrifice imps in the temple to keep CREATE_IMP costs at 150 per use. You essentially have infinite gold when you have a workforce of 20-25 level 3 imps going at the gems 24/7. You'll spit out vampires faster than he can and can just out-scavenge him.

    It's only broken if it has no counterplay.
    I've tried to before, but never succeeded with this tactic. Did you ever manage to make this work on this level? A level 10 vampire is so much more potent at scavenging then low level vampires, and he starts out with one.
    Perhaps I simply wasn't quick enough,...

    And I'm not saying vampires are broken, they have their strengths and weaknesses. This however isn't a skirmish or multiplayer map, where you simply allowed your opponent to grow too powerful. Here, if you play the map normally, the keeper is getting an army which you have no way to directly face, at which point you have two options: Restart the level, or snipe the heart.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Perhaps holding them as they spawn would stop them being scavenged, then when they are enough you could drop them all at once in the scavenger room. But then again you would have to train them. You would need a hell of a lot of vampires, 40 at least.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    The vampire option didn't work so well. He was scavenged pretty much instantly. The only way you could do it would be to scout their base (Horny does a good job) and cave-in the vamps repeatedly so they leave the room. It's too much work.
    I used an alternative strategy of sending in a group of dragons and lightning striking balls of enemy creatures into the grave, then pulling my dragons out. After four fights, they only had the vampires left. The fights caused a lot of bodies and a lot of vampires, but because I had scouted the base, I just flaunted the power of capitalism and dropped a few 3k value lightning strikes through the roof on any level 1 vampires I saw walking around. Then I just flagged the heart and walked in.

    His army was all level 9-10 Dragons/Biles/Trolls/Locks at the first fight but he only had two vampires. I spent a long time just sitting around twiddling my thumbs and making the dungeon look pretty.

    I have no idea how long you'd need to wait for the keeper to get 35 max level vampires. Yes, Vampires bumbling around in a Scavenger room do increase the chance of other vamps coming through the portal, but the keeper doesn't start with a pre-made Scavenger or Graveyard and he doesn't have the capacity to build it until it's researched. By the time it has been researched, he'll be at maximum creature capacity. Pretty much the only way the enemy keeper could get a large army of Vampires is if the player hands it to them on a silver platter.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Mmm, interesting,... I've always seen him with just vampires, but perhaps that's simply because I scavenged all his dragons/biles/trolls, which he replaced with vampires.

    Edit: I also remember this bug,... the creature pool is filled with vampires, they are attracted nearly instantaneously, but of course only if there is room. But, doesn't a scavenging vampire raise the portal limit by half anyway?

    Got to replay the level sometime, and pay attention to blue.
    Last edited by YourMaster; October 28th, 2014 at 00:00.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    I just played level 20 again,... for some reason at the very beginning the blue keeper destroyed the hero heart, which triggers an attack of the horny, witch and tentacles to attack him. This was my cue to quickly use the 5 level specials, and clean up after the attack. I had blue defeated in minutes.

    I could capture some of the low level vampires resulting of that attack, so the rest of the level was a breeze as well.

    EDIT: The below was a response to a deleted post about attempting korros tor
    As for the deeper dungeon maps: They are in a whole different class to the campaign maps. In the campaign it feels like cheating to play your bests, in DD you have to use all strategies effectively:

    * Fortify walls quickly when needed
    * Train a few creatures to be strong, not all to be mediocre if you don't have the cash
    * Avoid battles you cannot win, pull out before you lose creatures. Slowly pick apart your rivals.
    * Use traps and doors effectively, 4 boulders can do more damage than a large army can.
    * Reload saves on big mistakes
    * Use your spells: Must obey is important, it helps your creatures train faster
    Last edited by YourMaster; October 28th, 2014 at 16:49.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I just played level 20 again,... for some reason at the very beginning the blue keeper destroyed the hero heart, which triggers an attack of the horny, witch and tentacles to attack him. This was my cue to quickly use the 5 level specials, and clean up after the attack. I had blue defeated in minutes.

    I could capture some of the low level vampires resulting of that attack, so the rest of the level was a breeze as well.



    As for the deeper dungeon maps: They are in a whole different class to the campaign maps. In the campaign it feels like cheating to play your bests, in DD you have to use all strategies effectively:

    * Fortify walls quickly when needed
    * Train a few creatures to be strong, not all to be mediocre if you don't have the cash
    * Avoid battles you cannot win, pull out before you lose creatures. Slowly pick apart your rivals.
    * Use traps and doors effectively, 4 boulders can do more damage than a large army can.
    * Reload saves on big mistakes
    * Use your spells: Must obey is important, it helps your creatures train faster
    It seemed impossible but yeah, I managed it. It wasn't too difficult, just a bit tedious. I had boulder traps set where he would dig in to the south, then I just kept the pressure on; lowering his minions then using lightning. I took out all of his mistresses with 1 boulder, my only problem after that was the dragons. Took a solid hour though, maybe longer I don't know. Time flies when you're having fun

  8. #28

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    His army was all level 9-10 Dragons/Biles/Trolls/Locks at the first fight but he only had two vampires. I spent a long time just sitting around twiddling my thumbs and making the dungeon look pretty.

    I have no idea how long you'd need to wait for the keeper to get 35 max level vampires. Yes, Vampires bumbling around in a Scavenger room do increase the chance of other vamps coming through the portal, but the keeper doesn't start with a pre-made Scavenger or Graveyard and he doesn't have the capacity to build it until it's researched. By the time it has been researched, he'll be at maximum creature capacity. Pretty much the only way the enemy keeper could get a large army of Vampires is if the player hands it to them on a silver platter.
    Kicking this topic: A comment from Krizzie made me realize what has happened here.

    For a while there has been a bug with the scavenger room, causing all vampires in the pool to spawn instantaneously as soon as one vampire entered the room. This caused blue be maxed out on vampires right away.

    Now that has been fixed - right before you tried the map - the vampire numbers stay really low and blue is defeat-able again.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    I just finished replaying dk original campaing again in FX.
    My thanks for everyone that gives the effort for creating the fan patch.

    A couple things I notice, some creatures seems to be different than the original campaign. Hound now can spit fireball, dragon seems a bit less tanky and some other stuff. Perhaps it's my memory after not playing for so long.
    On topic, after replaying this again, I realized the enemy keeper in skybird trill do not have limitless gold.
    I notice how he have a limited hatchery and lair so I give him a lot of dead imps to create a vampire too many for the supposedly limited room.
    He stopped training creature in the second payday after I start giving him imps, and I cannot get the vampire count higher than 81 due for them to start leaving.



    Overall, it was a nice experience.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Skybird Trill

    Yes, the DragonsLover patch is included in KeeperFX. These are basically the changes to creatures that the user DragonsLover liked. This includes fireball on the hound, hail on vampires, rebound on the warlock and quite a few more.

    Due to a few bugfixes, melee creatures do a bit more damage as well. This is hurting the dragon, who needs a bit of a buff in armour as he relies on out-healing the damage done to him.

    The blue keeper in skybird trill does indeed not have any gems, but he starts with an awful lot of gold(2,460,000), which is much more then enough in normal situations.

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