Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

  
  1. #1

    Default Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    I don't mean in a technical sense.

    I am professionally diagnosed with OCD and I find it nigh on impossible to create a map that isn't symmetrical or orderly, and this is great for multiplayer levels (where I feel euphoric) but sucks for campaign, as I feel it greatly restricts the 'random terrain' feeling that campaign maps usually have to differentiate them from multiplayer.

    If I attempt to create a campaign map without it being at least remotely symmetrical, I feel extremely uncomfortable and want to scrap the map, and have a sense of 'no direction' where the level is headed (if that makes sense).

    What do you think about this? Do you think that a campaign consisting of maps that appear to be a mix of multiplayer and typical campaign would be boring?

    Do you struggle to create maps in any way?


    I have attached an image of the Adikted layout of my first campaign level, as reference.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DKe.JPG 
Views:	60 
Size:	333.5 KB 
ID:	1543  
    Last edited by Auxin; December 3rd, 2014 at 08:22.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    I agree that symmetrical maps are inherently bad for single player levels, and not just because of the 'feel' of it.

    Symmetrical maps in multilayer are good, because the focus is not the level, but the other human players. They all need a fair chance, and playing each one is unique because each human is unique.

    On single player levels, once you have something symmetrical, that means you have the player do the same thing multiple times. It becomes even worse when the player is not in the center, but one of the halves/quarts, and 1-3 computer players get the same starting position as the player. The AI is nowhere near as capable as the player in dungeon design, creature training, hero converting, special using or just general strategy/combat so that means the more complicated the map, the easier it becomes for the player.



    When designing a single player level, do not start out with 'drawing' the level, but with coming up with the task or goal for the player in that level, and why that would be interesting. And then think of sub-goals to get there.
    In general you could say that a regular Dungeon Keeper level(not map, I really mean level) consists of two parts: Build up the dungeon, and face the challenge. Those two parts should be interlinked, as when you are free to build up your dungeon indefinitely and grow all powerful that would be boring. Similarly, a level is also no fun if doing the challenge is not impacted by the quality of the dungeon design (e.g. If you can possess a single level 10 creature to win, you feel like you've wasted time training the other 29 creatures).

    I think the best way to create a fun single player in this game is to allow the player to have fun building the dungeon, but put some sort of pressure on the player. Most obviously this is:
    • Gold running out for the player
    • Hero attack that is imminent
    • Rival keeper becoming too strong if you let him live too long

    Think how you want to put pressure on the player before you even place the first dungeon heart. Of course you can take a combination of these, or any other possibilities the script-language provides you. For example, how much gold is mined, how much area a rival keeper has under control, how many creatures have become unhappy, how many traps are being built.
    This is the main challenge, and should be interesting too the player. The player should have to figure out how to overcome this challenge, if he just mindlessly plays how he always plays and this is an automatic win, he is not challenged but bored. There must be some twist.

    Your sub-goals are done the same way. If the goal for the player is to build up a strong enough army to win a hero invasion coming at 20 minutes playtime, a sub-goal is to beat the heroes guarding the portal with your starting creatures, another to become strong enough to take out the heroes guarding the gold before your gold runs out, yet another to find the level special hidden on the map without being defeated by hidden hero-pockets and finally defeat a rival keeper to get access to a room/spell you need. Think of an interesting string and you may have a fun level. When creating the map, know your main goal, and 'paint in' one sub-goal at a time. If you do this, you'll automatically get a natural feel.

    Secondly, as this is not the first time the player has build a dungeon, think about why this dungeon he will build is different from the other 1000 he has made. Is it because of the weird space he has to build it in, the strange room or creature selection he has available, or some special consideration he has to account for(e.g. a hero gate right in the middle of his dungeon, or pre-made rooms that are strange to work with).

    And finally, I feel that making the build-up phase of a level fun, is a lot easier then making the final challenge fun. I think the game makers have focused a lot more on making the dungeon building part of the game, and not enough on what to do once you have a powerful army. I think that trying to make the end-game difficult, almost always makes it tedious instead as it simply becomes a very slow but obvious situation of chipping away at a more powerful enemy. Try to play to the games strength.



    I hope this helps you out a bit.

  3. #3
    Spider
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Cardiff, UK
    Posts
    206

    Default Re: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    An excellent reply. The makings of a chapter in the 'make your own level' wiki pages?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    Quote Originally Posted by dayokay View Post
    An excellent reply. The makings of a chapter in the 'make your own level' wiki pages?
    The wiki is broken

  5. #5

    Default Re: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    The internet has ruined the word 'euphoric' for me.

    I'm generally the opposite to you, Auxin. I can't stand when things are too straight or perfectly sized so i'm always forcing area restrictions on the player whether it be impenetrable rock or water. My maps are extremely water heavy and it's gotten so bad I added a few lines into my campaign stating it took place in an aquifer. I'm not a fan of large empty areas of dirt and i'm especially against random pockets of heroes hidden in them. The random group of heroes north of the player in Belbata is a good example of pure bullshit. There's nothing to signify that they're even there and they're a high enough level to knock out a player if they happened to dig north. A pocket of heroes in front of a gold vein? Understandable. But those guys are crap.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    Thanks for the replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    The internet has ruined the word 'euphoric' for me.

    I'm generally the opposite to you, Auxin. I can't stand when things are too straight or perfectly sized so i'm always forcing area restrictions on the player whether it be impenetrable rock or water. My maps are extremely water heavy and it's gotten so bad I added a few lines into my campaign stating it took place in an aquifer. I'm not a fan of large empty areas of dirt and i'm especially against random pockets of heroes hidden in them. The random group of heroes north of the player in Belbata is a good example of pure bullshit. There's nothing to signify that they're even there and they're a high enough level to knock out a player if they happened to dig north. A pocket of heroes in front of a gold vein? Understandable. But those guys are crap.
    The idea of a perfect campaign map in my eyes does not involve straight or perfectly sized terrain etc. However, my brain literally prevents me from making maps in this way, I have to create maps at least remotely symmetrical or ordered to a pattern in a way seen in the reference level attached in my original post. I find it almost painful to make campaigns and like you, I have strategies that I use to circumvent this, but they are very, very strict and cause me to waste so much time perfecting the most mundane details that nobody would even pay attention to. It takes me about a week (spending hours per day) developing a campaign level that I actually feel would be an enjoyable experience. It then takes me a few weeks to create the script because I have to keep re-ordering the events based on what I perceive to be a logical consistency.

    I tend to overload my scripts with events to compensate for what I presume would be an otherwise boring level to navigate. I have different goals for my levels. I have attached the script for the map I posted in the original post. In that level, the goal is to rescue prisoners before they die whilst maintaining the Lord of the Land as your prisoner, so that you can release an empowered Lord of the Land onto the enemy Keepers when the time is right. It is currently the first level in my campaign but likely to end up as the 7th or 8th with some changes. I have no difficulty planning out a campaign, a story and events, it's just the terrain that I can't create.

    I have attached another map I have made that I gave-up on, because I don't see how anybody would enjoy playing it as part of a campaign. It is no-where near finished and had a very untraditional playstyle. You were going to start the campaign by invading and claiming the dungeon of the weak Blue Keeper (with Tentacles, that are modified to be super strong in my campaign). You would not capture a Library, though you could create one, but research only rooms. Spells are scattered for you to find, and to reach the level rewards would proc action points causing Heroes to invade your main base from the 6th northern gates in waves that progressively got stronger until the Lord of the Land came. The problem is I found it tedious to complete the main objective by destroying the green/yellow Keepers.

    I hope this reveals what I mean by struggling to create levels, in a non-technical sense.

    My prime reason for creating this thread was to identify whether others would bother playing such levels, because I'm not sure if I should go through with making my campaign or not.

    If anybody would want to make use of my scripts or maps you can have them, but they are unlikely to play as intended without my other campaign config and creature changes. I'm going to stop creating for now, at least until next year, when I have less stress.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1.JPG 
Views:	28 
Size:	311.1 KB 
ID:	1544   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2.JPG 
Views:	16 
Size:	243.2 KB 
ID:	1545  
    Last edited by Auxin; December 12th, 2014 at 07:11.

  7. #7
    Spider UnknownMaster21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    201

    Default Re: Does anyone else struggle to create maps?

    I have no problems to make any maps, also it goes very interesting because in my following campaign, what I am going to announce and preview on some point, there is a plot. More interesting to do and I have almost done with full 20 levels + Additional 4 secret levels. Every level has a point of plot, so it takes things to go a lot interesting to find about next one.

    I have tried to find as many new things than seen before as possible, and yes, it has come to be at least partially success. Nothing much to say, but looks good.

    Though, I will need few people about making the land in 8-bit, also sound of the narrator, and eventually, little advices about to make things in land area.

    All levels will be original, obviously

Similar Threads

  1. Can not overwrite Maps/save new maps
    By Taliasam in forum DK1 Mapmaking
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: November 10th, 2012, 14:56
  2. New possible way to create a new Dungeon Keeper
    By Walkerz in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: November 9th, 2009, 18:11

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •