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Thread: Bonus level changes?

  
  1. #1

    Default Bonus level changes?

    Hi!

    I'm playing KeeperFX for the first time and I have one question regarding the Bonus level where you have to kill 50 imps to get a Level 10 creature to transfer. In the version I've played in the 90s you got a Level 10 vampire. All the guides and walkthroughs I read on the internet all refer to a lvl 10 vampire, too. In the game however I get a lvl 10 dark mistress and also the text at the bottom refers to a dark mistress. Actually the text says that I aquired two dark mistresses but I only got one which I can transfer then. So what happened to the vampire? Is this a change KeeperFX made or did I miss a patch in the 90s so that this is news for me?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    Hi, this is part of the changes made by DragonsLover in KeeperFX. You can see the full topic here: https://keeperklan.com/threads/3340-...e-bonus-levels

    Also see this topic: https://keeperklan.com/threads/4420-...nilla-Campaing

  3. #3

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    Thank you very much. I was looking at the keeperfx website and readme but couldn't find any information on this.
    I was kind of pissed when I discovered I couldn't get my vampire. ^^ But after reading the topics I kind of think these changes were made for the best even though I liked to abuse getting horny or my vampire.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    I do also think these are changes for the better. However I do kinda dislike nothing was added instead of the horned reaper on that imp-destroy level. DragonsLover did say he was going to fix that, before he disappeared, but never has.

    In the new game plus campaign I made I did add something back in there, and on the other level I awarded two mistresses even though you can only transfer one.

    And unfortunately, DragonsLover has made the changes directly into the KeeperFX config files in the code base, but made no record or documentation. So nothing can be found in the readme on this.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    You mean this part?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsLover View Post
    Third level from level 15 is the fry the imps level where you can transfer a level 10 . The hidden on this level has been replaced by a to avoid abuse.
    I don't get a giant to spawn either and a hellhound even at level 10 is pointless for me. I'm no DK pro but I'd take a mistress over a hellhound any day so there is no point in playing this level over the other.

    Some other thing I'm curious about but I couldn't find proof for it. Are there any changes to monster stats OR enemy keeper AI? I found the keepers in the campaign to be pretty aggressive. Example level 10: The enemy keeper built a bridge towards me almost instantly rushing me. He would have won easily every time if I hadn't transferred a lvl10 creature. I didn't remember that in the past. Same in level 14 or 15 I think. Green keeper rushed to the heroes and lost miserably. Enemy knight who was injured wandered around killing my gold digging imps but he was so injured I could take him down easily winning the whole level without fighting any of the two other keepers. I'm sure this was not intended to happen.

    Some offtopic:
    You mention in your link that your new game+ is still easier than deeper dungeons. I've never played DD before. Getting excited for this.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Dobermann View Post
    You mean this part?
    I don't get a giant to spawn either and a hellhound even at level 10 is pointless for me. I'm no DK pro but I'd take a mistress over a hellhound any day so there is no point in playing this level over the other.
    Yes. The spawning of the giant was something he was going to implement before he left. DragonsLover made many changes to creatures and levels, a lot of them for the better but some of them really didn't work out. He received feedback on this forum and was working on fixing what didn't work well, but left before implementing the fixes.

    And yes, A Mistress is a very powerful creature, so the only reason to get the hellhound is for fun, or for level 20 if you don't want to bother with not getting her scavenged. But most levels have a transfer special anyway.
    Hellhounds are really good to though if you know how to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Dobermann View Post
    Some other thing I'm curious about but I couldn't find proof for it. Are there any changes to monster stats OR enemy keeper AI? I found the keepers in the campaign to be pretty aggressive. Example level 10: The enemy keeper built a bridge towards me almost instantly rushing me. He would have won easily every time if I hadn't transferred a lvl10 creature. I didn't remember that in the past. Same in level 14 or 15 I think. Green keeper rushed to the heroes and lost miserably. Enemy knight who was injured wandered around killing my gold digging imps but he was so injured I could take him down easily winning the whole level without fighting any of the two other keepers. I'm sure this was not intended to happen.
    Yes, creature stats were changed by the DragonsLover patch, but in the latest nightly build many of them are corrected.

    The KeeperAI didn't have that many changes in KeeperFX, but I think you played the old version of the original dungeon keeper where the AI did almost nothing. Bullfrog made a patch for that game - which came included with dungeon keeper gold and deeper dungeons - which improved the AI by a lot already.

    Level 15 is a bit problematic yes, the level is supposed to play out in such a way that the keepers dig out to the water and have to fight the knight and samurai there, but they are supposed to win. However, with some of the bugfixes and stat changes, the balance is shifted and the keepers lose, making the level much too easy.(It was a bad level even in the original game though, as the keepers never were a match.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Dobermann View Post
    Some offtopic:
    You mention in your link that your new game+ is still easier than deeper dungeons. I've never played DD before. Getting excited for this.
    If you've never played DD you should of course, as they are the only maps beyond the campaign levels released by Bullfrog, some of them are quite good, but a lot of them are not to every-bodies liking. Some levels are kind of like puzzles or are a bit tedious, others have some very cheap deaths were you get surprised by big hero parties that will kill you the first time you play the map. But some of them are quite challenging.
    The new game+ campaign I did not make to be difficult, but made for people wanted to play the campaign but did so once before and as such don't need the tutorial messages or a level 10 creature to start out every level. The early levels in the original campaign are a real letdown, they let you train a massive army, and then you only have to fight a level 1 knight a dwarf and an archer, so that is something I changes as well.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    DragonsLover made many changes to creatures and levels, a lot of them for the better but some of them really didn't work out. He received feedback on this forum and was working on fixing what didn't work well, but left before implementing the fixes.
    I have finished the original campaign now and I used version 0.4.5. Is there an objective way to tell if the campaign with KeeperFX 0.4.5 is overall easier or more difficult?

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    If you've never played DD you should of course, as they are the only maps beyond the campaign levels released by Bullfrog, some of them are quite good, but a lot of them are not to every-bodies liking. Some levels are kind of like puzzles or are a bit tedious, others have some very cheap deaths were you get surprised by big hero parties that will kill you the first time you play the map. But some of them are quite challenging.
    I've played the first four levels of the Deeper Dungeons now and I didn't like one of them. Maybe I just suck at higher difficulties but I won these levels by:

    1. digging out space
    2. dying to a million level 8-10 heroes
    3. restarting
    4. digging out space to where it was safe
    5. build and secure the dungeon
    6. train all creatures to level 10
    7. attack the heroes
    8. recover
    9. attack the enemy keeper

    And this was not fun to me. In one level there have been 5 level 10 knights in one place wtf.

    In level four (Belbata) you fight three keepers each having level 10 creatures. I found myself going afk after I beat one of the enemy keepers because I lost half of my army and it took time to train the new creatures+vampires up to level 10 again to be able to attack the next keeper. I tried using boulders which didn't work out so I wasted another hour finding that out. Annoying! I didn't win this by skill, but by a sheer amout of patience and spamming the chicken spell in the fights all over the place.

    Also who found it to be a good idea to not give you the sight of evil spell when there are heroes all over the place. Sure it pumps up the difficulty but it's so annoying to be constantly suicide digging through the dungeon just to know where the heroes are and then reloading.

    End of rant, my apologies.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    I do not think the KeeperFX campaign is notably different in difficulty from the original game. It is pretty much unchanged.

    And yes, like I said, the Deeper Dungeons levels are not to everyone's liking, and the cheap hero deaths and 'patience' of many of the levels is the cause of that. Not all the levels are like that mind you, but still too many for my liking.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    Welcome to one of the big problems with Dungeon Keeper. Once a wall is knocked down, it's knocked down. If you open yourself up to a cavern full of guys you can't handle, there isn't much you can do, especially early in the game. There are things you can do to slow them down or thin their numbers but you can't actually lock them out

    Spoiler

    .

    The question is how do you go about mapping this while remaining both fair and interesting? Should the player always know there is going to be a fight? Shouldn't the player be wary about where they're digging in the first place? Even if you show the player a hero gate, how do they know what triggers it or how strong the attacking party will be? Dungeon Keeper is a great game but it's pumped full of bad design decisions.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Bonus level changes?

    Yes, that is one of the discussions I tried to raise in this topic. I thing it is something that should be done with moderation, in the sense that you can expect the player to be somewhat cautious and not dig right to the other side of the map, that the player could accidentally dig into hero pockets he regrets, but if the hero parties are deadly, especially when really near to the starting location, the player should be warned. Strong parties can be placed behind locked doors, put onto guardpost or made obvious by the map layout.
    Deeper Dungeons has some of the examples on how NOT to make it fun. Players are either forced to Save-game abuse or to dig out a single tile at a time and reinforce to see where the dirt stops. Nobody likes that.

    If you want the maps to be interesting, have the player know where the danger is, but put him under pressure to face the danger anyway, for example because he will run out of gold otherwise or because there is something else to gain from it.

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