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Thread: Keeper with two hearts

  
  1. #1
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Keeper with two hearts

    What should be the logic when player has more than one dungeon heart?

    Currently, KeeperFX supports two hearts only partially:
    - When the heart considered "first" is destroyed - dungeon starts being unclaimed, but then just before heart explosion it "switches" the dungeon to second heart, and all players creatures survive (though I didn't tested that).
    - When the "second" heart is destroyed, nothing happens.

    Also, when a heart is attacked the computer player would most likely only protect "first" heart.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    I expect when a keeper has two hearts, he treats them both as hearts, not as one main one and one backup one. So defend them both equally, or prioritize the one with lowest health first.
    Keeper to only be affected when all hearts destroyed.

    This is because the only reason I see for a player having two hearts, is because the objective in that map is to destroy them both. If the player can destroy one without resistance that defeats the purpose.

    Also for this same reason it would be very convenient if from the script the mapmaker can determine how many hearts are left/destroyed. (And for example reduce the power of the CP with one less heart, or increase the power of the player when he destroyed one of them).

  3. #3
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    This is because the only reason I see for a player having two hearts, is because the objective in that map is to destroy them both. If the player can destroy one without resistance that defeats the purpose.
    I saw the idea of a player having two dungeons and having to defend them both simultaneously from Heroes or something else one of their hearts is destroyed and they lose. That would be some crazy fun.

    How feasible is it to add functionality for both needing to destroy only one heart and needing to destroy all hearts?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    If you can detect the number of hearts destroyed with the script you can as a mapmaker always invoke the lose condition when one is destroyed.

  5. #5
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    It would make sense to make the player defeated when all hearts are destroyed and allow any changes to that by IFs in csript.

    But about the hearts being treated equally:
    - At start of the level, one heart is used to show the floating spirit entering. Isn't that misleading?
    - There are many mechanics related to players heart: Imps retreat there when attacked, creatures present themselves upon entering, enemies are attacking it when their original objective cannot be pursued, and a lot more. There are also mechanics less visible to players - ie. making list for imp tasks queue also uses heart position. Is it really OK for players to have two or more "dungeon centers" used for all these mechanics? This does complicates everything, and introduces an element of uncertainty - which heart will become a reference for each task?
    - From the game universe perspective - since Keeper is a single entity, can it really occupy two soul containers?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    Well, from a game-universe perspective every keeper just has one heart. And like you say, there are many mechanics related to that one heart.
    I really think the proper behavior for two hearts would be to treat them as two hearts, but fully specifying and coding the behavior of the game with 2 or more hearts is an awful lot of work, which I do not believe is worth it.
    I would say in general every computation could take the 'closest' heart as 'the' heart.

    But as I think that if multiple hearts were properly supported perhaps 1 or 2 maps would take advantage of that, I think there are two simpler alternatives:
    • Don't support multiple hearts.
    • Select one heart as the primary heart for behind the scenes behavior, but have the CP and Creatures defend the other heart the same way as the first one.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    There are also mechanics less visible to players - ie. making list for imp tasks queue also uses heart position.
    So that's why they're acting so dumb in my map. They don't have access to their heart and you really have to micro-manage them to get them to claim tiles.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    I think that a multi Heart Keeper has his soul separated in more soul containers, and so to kill that Keeper one has to destroy 'em all (like the Horcruxes in Harry Potter).
    This is just my opinion, the question should be left to the mapmaker: maybe he thinks like me that more Hearts mean more soul pieces to be destroyed, or maybe he wants that the player has to defend 'em all or he will lose. Technically, I think that the question could be handled like this: 1) The player will lose when all the Hearts will be destroyed and 2) The variable DUNGEON_DESTROYED can have as value 0 (0 Hearts destroyed), 1 (1 Heart destroyed), 2 (2 Hearts destroyed) and so on.
    Game mechanics: each Heart should have a number (i.e the first created in the editor will be the #1, the second created in the editor the #2 and so on). Creatures will check the lowest numbered Heart that they can see and the spirit will enter in the #1 Heart

  9. #9
    KeeperFX Author mefistotelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    Quote Originally Posted by friscmanseby View Post
    I think that a multi Heart Keeper has his soul separated in more soul containers
    I'm not sure if this is best thinking.
    For a movie maybe, not for a game.

    Having one "active" heart is far easier from the programmers standpoint, and straightforward for mapmakers and players.

    At the beginning of every game, the soul enters one heart. In case it is destroyed, the soul just moves to another.
    It may even lose control of something in the process, ie. territory or creatures.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Keeper with two hearts

    In my humble opinion, I think that the idea of the active Heart and the inactive one (that if destroyed, nothing happens) makes not so much sense...
    Makes more sense the idea that all the Hearts are equal, and the Keeper dies when ALL of them are destroyed, with the choice left to the mapmaker to do otherwise (like 1 Heart destroyed = defeat).
    After all, even you said that:
    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    It would make sense to make the player defeated when all hearts are destroyed and allow any changes to that by IFs in csript.
    But about the hearts being treated equally:
    - At start of the level, one heart is used to show the floating spirit entering. Isn't that misleading?
    The floating spirit should enter in the first Heart put by the mapmaker.
    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    - There are many mechanics related to players heart: Imps retreat there when attacked, creatures present themselves upon entering, enemies are attacking it when their original objective cannot be pursued, and a lot more. There are also mechanics less visible to players - ie. making list for imp tasks queue also uses heart position. Is it really OK for players to have two or more "dungeon centers" used for all these mechanics? This does complicates everything, and introduces an element of uncertainty - which heart will become a reference for each task?
    I think should be not so difficult from a programmers' prospective to make the Heart similar to every other room: if a Creature seeks for a Lair or Hatchery, will go to the nearest that he can reach, and so the creature should do for the Heart
    Quote Originally Posted by mefistotelis View Post
    - From the game universe perspective - since Keeper is a single entity, can it really occupy two soul containers?
    It's a phylosophical point of view and I think that all the choice should be left to the map/campaign maker.
    What you think?

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