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Thread: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

  
  1. #101

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    This game has a small pool of units as it is, and you seek to cut that pool in half by making stat-duplicates of currently varied units.

    You need to start thinking of the units as a collective pool rather than a Humies vs Heretics race-based RTS.

  2. #102

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Is not over confidence is completely different goal.

    He simply buffed evil creatures and added missing room attraction for heroes and made boulder damage different for each creature. I read his post and nowhere he ever considered a multiplayer battle of good vs evil for example.

    I aim to equalize Good and Evil not just attributes or spells but also manufacturing, research, tanking, and damage potential of the entire faction.

    I selectively pick and choose certain changes based on battle outcomes of 1 v 1, based on group fights evil vs good and based on good vs evil keeper AI performance.

    For example he left Wizard research 5. In my playtest I notice good gets ahead because they research faster and get samurai earlier in the game. NOT FAIR. Reducing Wizard research to 4 fixed this.

    Another example. Samurai training skill is 4 and Mistress has 3. This means around mid game not only they get Samurai faster but he will also outlevel Mistress by a lot winning late game.

    You yourself stated that evil creatures win early game and heroes late game. The wizard 5 and Samurai training 4 was partly why. Well this is no longer the case.

    Also another issue is Knight outscales Dragon because his firebreathing is only useful early game. Still working on this. Very late game heroes win due to Knight being OP



    Again, to re-iterate. My patch is total fairness between two sides so players can be either good heroes in campaign or play good vs evil in multiplayer and have a fair and equal fight not just random buffs.

    Every change is playtested 4 times in 4 1v1 battles, 4 group battles and 4 good vs evil ai keeper.

  3. #103

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    This game has a small pool of units as it is, and you seek to cut that pool in half by making stat-duplicates of currently varied units.

    You need to start thinking of the units as a collective pool rather than a Humies vs Heretics race-based RTS.
    No that's not what I aim.

    I aim to make the two sides fair.

    In my next version Warlock will actually have 9 spells and Wizard 10. Wizard will get level 5 rebound and heal just like vanilla.

    You don't need to make creatures identical to balance them. That is DEFF NOT what I am doing.

  4. #104

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Again for the Nth time to re-iterate.

    My aim is this

    When
    Player0 gets GOOD heroes via portal
    and Player1 gets EVIL creatures via portal
    and Player2 gets EVIL creatures
    and Player4 gets GOOD creatures

    and they start playing the game THEN everything feels fair and balanced (not equal or identical) .


    This is what I don't do
    - I do not make creature pair have the same attributes, spells, stats and same sprites
    - I do not completely rework every creature's spells
    - I do not make creatures identical including the names they come
    - No i dd not give fart to Giant
    - No I won't give freeze and drain and heal to Horned Reaper
    - No I did not give rebound and armour to troll
    - No I did not give flight and wind to hellhound

  5. #105

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Surprisingly my creature pairing makes even more sense with original DK settings

    Is weird that a lot of people are being critical of my methods when another user already did this very same thing and I guess nobody complained enough to not include his changes with keeperfx until much later.

    I do like some of his changes and will actually verify his changes against mine and vanilla DK as an extra 3rd perspective.

    Anyway with that being said im gonna focus more on this balancing now
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 18th, 2016 at 20:29.

  6. #106

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    Is not over confidence is completely different goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    Is weird that a lot of people are being critical of my methods when another user already did this very same thing...
    These two statements are contradicting each other. With what you say in the first post I agree, what he did was something completely different. He never tried to make good equal to evil, which is something that does not fit with the game we have at all. (For example the reason that heroes start weak and end strong is on purpose so that the early campaign levels are easy but still have plenty of heroes for you to fight.) That being said, having a a completely separate set of configs where a human 'good keeper' can fight a human 'evil keeper' would be nice to have for when multiplayer starts to work.

    The reason why people are critical is not of WHAT you are trying to do, but HOW you're trying to do it. HOW you do it will never accomplish WHAT you want. You have made creature pairs that made NO sense at all, and by tweaking those pairs you do nothing to achieve any balance for human play, because human players will not strive to get the most diverse army but the most powerful one.

    Lets pretend these are all units in the game, and the number indicates how good they are:
    - 7 - 9
    - 9 - 10
    - 6 - 5
    - 5 - 3

    If you pair them up both sides win two fights and if you compare the 'stats' you also see both sides get 27 points so you have balance. Now humans will start to play the game and they will only use the two most powerful creatures to their disposal, and suddenly you'll find your game is completely unbalanced again.
    So if you balance the game, you'll have to figure out a way to get the player to want to use every possible creature, and to do so, every creature must have its use and thus you need to balance the units on the same side against each other. That every unit has a purpose/role that can not be done better by any other unit.
    And that's why you received criticism when you made a barbarian in every way inferior to a giant, or when you made a mistress in every way superior to any other evil creature. Not because the 'counterparts' weren't there, but because you completely broke the balance of the game.

  7. #107

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Yes someone else already did balancing. And yes my goal is different? What is contradictory? Balancing and goal are two related but different keywords.

    In other words we both did balancing but for different reasons. One is praised and his stuff ends up in KeeperFX the other is criticized for trying to do the same thing but for different reasons. And funny enough the praised guy's work ends up being removed later. Figures.




    Also in regards to how I do it is not 100% accurate.

    While I pair up creatures I don't do identical stats and spells. I only change a few stats (2-3 per creature) to the ones that are severely unbalanced.

    I don't give same spells and stats to Dragon as to Knight. They are different by design and I want to keep them different.


    Also is not just me but DK original devs by design created certain creatures pretty identical to one another.

    Dark Mistress - Samurai = both get lightning, speed and have pretty much identical stats except that Samurai has freeze and 80 damage
    Thief Demonspawn = similar stats and both grow into big creatures both get weird wizard like spells rebound/invis and heal
    Orc Barbarian = identical

    Also some creatures have similar stats and room attraction hinting to a similarity

    Tentacle Monk = both want Temple
    Hellhound Witch = both require Scavenger room

    ALL THIS in vanilla DK


    You're ALL completely wrong about the pairing of creatures. Blinded by your fanboy love of DK you can't really see the forest because of the trees.

    ALL I am doing is changing a few stats here and there so you can fairly play as one faction against the other something that was not built in the game design. Generally heroes were designed to be weaker earlier and stronger later to make the game more challenging.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    Also is not just me but DK original devs by design created certain creatures pretty identical to one another.

    Dark Mistress - Samurai = both get lightning, speed and have pretty much identical stats except that Samurai has freeze and 80 damage
    Thief Demonspawn = similar stats and both grow into big creatures both get weird wizard like spells rebound/invis and heal
    Orc Barbarian = identical

    Also some creatures have similar stats and room attraction hinting to a similarity

    Tentacle Monk = both want Temple
    Hellhound Witch = both require Scavenger room

    ALL THIS in vanilla DK


    You're ALL completely wrong about the pairing of creatures. Blinded by your fanboy love of DK you can't really see the forest because of the trees.
    Your comparisons are off.

    Samurai is a melee attacker using Lightning to get in. Dark Mistress is a ranged attacker based on ranged shock therapy. They have two special moves in common, Lightning and Speed, but that's about it. The other halves of their movesets are entirely different. I'll give it to you that they have a sort-of counterpart role as they are Lair enemies (the only hero-creature combination of lair enemies in vanilla DK) but your reasoning is off.

    Thief gets invisibility because he is supposed to be a sneaking unit. Demon Spawn gets Heal because it's associated with the Dragon and its healing capabilities. The only thing the two units have in common is that they grow into other units past level 10.

    Orc and Barbarian are kind of similar yes, but still the Orc gets Speed Up to set itself apart as a fast paced attacker, something the Barbarian doesn't do.

    The room attraction things aren't in vanilla DK at all, what the hell are you talking about. Vanilla DK has no defined attraction requirements at all for Hero units.


    I'll give you two points for the Samurai-Mistress (which is only true for another reason you didn't point out) and the Orc-Barbarian. If you want to be lenient you can also count Tunneller-Imp and Wizard-Warlock, but the comparisons mostly stop there and that still leaves over 20 units that don't have a direct counterpart (without making up some very contrived "links").

    The Awakening


  9. #109

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    The contradiction is that you feel it is strange that he is praised and you are criticized for the 'same thing' yet do something 'completely different'.
    And he got direct access to the source for many other stuff, which is nice. But at some point he started doing his 'creature balance' changes and was immediately criticized for it. And whenever you see people complain about keeperfx changes, it always is about that. And he also agreed that was a mistake, and he said he would change it back until he suddenly disappeared.

    You still do not know what vanilla keeper is. Monk-temple and Witch-scavenger room are new things from dragonslover. I'm not sure, but I think the original game also had no attraction for the tentacle.

    You can keep believing the entire world except for you is crazy with your random pairs, but as long as you have no understanding what roles the creatures have you cannot balance them. When you look at the Giant sprites, randomly decide he somehow must be a tank, pair him to a bile demon, then yes, you'll start to wonder why the giant has so little health (hint: because he is not a tank).
    Even where both sides have units that function the same, which you could 'pair', you fail to see them because you don't look at their roles. A dragon has a different role in the evil army then the knight has in the good army. The spider has a different role than the archer has, and so on.

    And believe me, the few people here are no blind fanboys. Quite the opposite, because we understand the game we know what a bug ridden rush job it is. We know the mechanics simply aren't thought out well and very little can be done with it. There's a reason why there's so little content to the game.
    And I meant what I said, I would like to see some configs that can be used for balanced evil keeper vs. good keeper games, but it's really obvious that you're not going to be the one that's going to provide those.

  10. #110

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Check this out

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You thought I was talking out of my ass

    Think again.

    Using math excel correlation data between stats MIND you all spells are ignored because they are much harder to quantify you get a strong correlation between all the champions I said.

    Mind you this ignores spell variables for creatures which are harder to quantify.

    For example while stat wise Wizard = Warlock in reality Wizard is x2 stronger due to the spell kit he has.

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