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Thread: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

  
  1. #111
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    According to your "math excel correlation data", the Hellhound is the counterpart of the Giant. As is the Tentacle. And the Demon Spawn's counterparts are the Monk and Wizard.

    Please check your logic again.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; May 19th, 2016 at 00:04.

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  2. #112

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Doesn't this excel prove you pulled the pairs out of your ass? I'm not seeing the Giant-Bile pair here, do you? Or the Monk-Tentacle pair?

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    According to your "math excel correlation data", the Hellhound is the counterpart of the Giant. As is the Tentacle. And the Demon Spawn's counterparts are the Monk and Wizard.
    Giant and Hell Hound are quite similar actually, both are melee-glass canons. And in fact I would say these are 'counterparts' if I had to name some.

  3. #113
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    EDIT:

    Giant and Hell Hound are quite similar actually, both are melee-glass canons. And in fact I would say these are 'counterparts' if I had to name some.
    Yeah, except one is pretty fast and made for exploration, and one is...not.

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  4. #114

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Yeah, except one is pretty fast and made for exploration, and one is...not.
    Heroes don't do exploration of course, but in combat they function roughly the same. If you can get them to hit without them getting hit they are awesome. Hell Hound is a bit better at defeating spell casters because he has an easier time catching up with them, but when a giant has a speed advantage he's quite good at that role as well.

  5. #115
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    They should still function totally differently because one's a big melee heavy hitter and the other focuses a lot on light quick hits and is split between melee and magic damage but unfortunately with the way armor works, it's exactly the same, and there's no distinction between physical and magical damage that matters in creature fights.

    Edit:
    Actually Flame Breath negates Evade and is more effective against still targets, so that actually makes a more significant difference. They're still both better against melee but the Hell Hound can counter some evasive units.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; May 19th, 2016 at 00:21.
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  6. #116

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    IF anything it proves that I been right all along that by game design creatures were designed in pairs. I actually correctly gusesed more pairs than I got wrong.

    Plus this is stats only, spells are ignored. Is too hard to quantify spells for this type of data.


    Correctly Guessed correlation
    Warlock - Wizard PROVEN
    Orc - Barbarian PROVEN
    Mistress - Samurai PROVEN
    Horny - Avatar PROVEN
    Dwarf - Troll PROVEN


    Incorrectly guessed correlations
    Hellhound Giant - this may be a false positive due to firebreathing and speed being ignored
    Monk Spider - monk likely beats spider due to more OP spells
    Tentacle - Giant or Barbarian (can't be Barbarian) so it could be Giant
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 19th, 2016 at 00:24.

  7. #117

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Ehm,... you've did the linking based on stats, then compared on stats and still have as much wrong as you've got right. And even where correct you're only confirming your own bias.

    According to the excel:
    Wizard -> Warlock -> +1
    Barbarian -> Orc -> +1
    Archer -> Demonspawn -> -1
    Monk -> Warlock -> -1
    Dwarf -> Troll -> +1
    Knight -> Dragon -> +1. The excel matches because the strength is the same, but strength isn't used for the dragon.
    Avatar -> Horny -> +1
    Tunneler-> Demonspawn -> -1
    Witch -> Demonspawn -> -1
    Giant -> Tentacle -> -1 (notice the bile demon is among the worst matches for the giant)
    Fairy -> bug -> -1
    Thief -> demonspawn -> +1
    Samurai -> Mistress -> +1

    Like mentioned before, Wizard/Warlock, Orc/Barbarian, Mistress/Samurai and Dwarf/Troll are quite similar indeed. Those are the ones why you thought you could do pairings, all the others are far less likely to work. And even for those, the Wizard is powerful and the Warlock weak and the Mistress is ranged and the samurai melee where they provide completely different roles in the army. So even if you could pair those thematically, pairing them balance wise does not work at all.

    All you did was notice 3 similarities and then continued to pull 13 pairings out of your ass.


    EDIT
    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    They should still function totally differently because one's a big melee heavy hitter and the other focuses a lot on light quick hits and is split between melee and magic damage but unfortunately with the way armor works, it's exactly the same, and there's no distinction between physical and magical damage that matters in creature fights.

    Edit:
    Actually Flame Breath negates Evade and is more effective against still targets, so that actually makes a more significant difference. They're still both better against melee but the Hell Hound can counter some evasive units.
    What your saying is that they are different on differences that have no effect.. As you know the stats in DK all suck. Roughly creatures have DPS, Health, Speed and spell. The speed is the main difference between the two, beyond that they both have High DPS, low health and no real spells.

    They both function best against creatures that don't hit back.
    Last edited by YourMaster; May 19th, 2016 at 00:46.

  8. #118

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    So let's discuss the weird correlations.

    Remember these are stats only and no spells.


    Demonspawn = Wizard, Monk ?

    Both Wizard and Monk will shit all over a Demonspawn way more OP spells. This correlation is a false positive due to spells being ignored. Most casters have stats of weak fighters like Thief, Demonspawn, Spider.

    If we remove Wizard and Monk who else is left that is the closest?

    Archer



    Spider = Monk?

    Same issue as above. A false positive. If we ignore monk we get??

    Thief


    Spider = Thief
    Demonspawn = Archer

    What about their kits

    Spider slows and freezes. Archer slows and speeds up.
    Demonspawn shoots at distance and heals and grows up. Thief rebounds and goes invisible and grows up.

    Obvious correlation that is unaccounted for spells and growup



    Hellhound = Giant?

    Hellhound also has speed and fire breathing which boosts his damage by about 20. The next closest after Giant is Barbarian which can't be right he deff correlated with Orc.

    So this may indeed be correct.


    Tentacle = Giant?

    Is possible this may also be correct.


    My guess is Witch, Monk, Hellhound, Tentacle were filler creatures created later with no counterparts . And Fly and Beetle were created earlier also with no counter parts.

    Out of 30 creatures 10 don't have a pair.



    In fact i think Vampire and Monk and Fairy and Ghost were supposed to correlate but since both good and evil keeper gets it I'm balancing it differently.


    It'd say this proves my point that by design there are creature pairs.

  9. #119

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    If you ignore the things that don't fit your theory you start to get lots of evidence for your theory.

    The difference between ranged and melee is larger then any other stat difference. A spider with melee attack functions so completely different in combat then the ranged archer it's not even funny. No way these are pairs.
    The fairy is a huge glass canon, very dangerous to leave unattended. The ghost is just weak as fuck because it must be weaker than all else because you can turn every creature into a ghost.

    But I say again, even if the creatures were all designed in pairs. Just assume the designers stood up and said 'we want a good counterpart for the warlock' and made the wizard. They then went on to make them so completely different in power with the spells that 'balancing' them out would make a huge difference for their side. If they would have said 'well, now that we have the good knight we'd better make the evil dragon' and made one do no damage and die to an archer and give the other huge offense and great defense with heal/armour/rebound how would they still effectively fill the same roles? So how could you balance those against each other?

  10. #120
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Creatures stats were balanced based on what abilities they were given, and vice versa. You can't look at one while ignoring the other when comparing them. Your logic is fundamentally flawed.

    DK1 wasn't designed with counterparts in mind. DK2 was, but that's only because DK2 is a rushed piece of crap with no creativity, hence counterparts exist because it justifies cloning units across creatures and heroes rather than having to design an extra 10+ or so more units.

    I was going to say more but YourMaster said it in the post above mine.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
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