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Thread: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

  
  1. #121

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    EDIT:

    Even more up to date one that shows the disparity between some of these creatures

    Shows how bad wizard is vs warlock.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is the table I used
    50 fireball
    100 rebound
    100 heal
    90 meteor
    40 poison gas
    60 fart
    50 firebreath
    80 lighting
    80 drain
    100 speed
    90 slow
    100 freeze
    70 hailstorm
    50 flight
    40 invis
    110 teleport
    50 wop
    40 miss
    60 navmis
    30 arrow
    90 armour
    20 wind
    20 sight


    This is KeeperfX. I can actually fix some of these issues while still keep the game pretty much the same.


    Notice how Dwarf is as strong as a Warlock so stupid
    and how a Thief is as strong as a Troll

    spells make a huge difference and most off the evil creatures are way worse than heroes.
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 19th, 2016 at 02:10.

  2. #122
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    You can't simply plug in numbers on spells to determine their 'value' and expect that to reflect on overall balance or how certain units are 'counterparts'. It doesn't work that way. Balance is relative.

    The strength of a spell is dependent upon other spells, stats, and of course fighting preference that the creature has, in addition to what level the spell is gained. Not just of that one creature, but of every other creature, since a spell like Rebound for example is only effective if there's projectiles to reflect (therefore, it's strength on one creature depends on what every other creature gets). Protect is strong on creatures with high armor as they get a larger bonus, but it's also powerful as a tool against Keeper Lightning, so that complicates things further by throwing research time into the equation, but it's also even better for units who were previously weak against Lightning as it has more of an impact (imagine if the Fairy had Protect and couldn't simply be zapped for instance), so that complicates things even further.

    Even if you could attach a value to how strong a spell is, once you start doing changes, that value loses its meaning because again, balance is relative. Give Freeze to the Dark Mistress? Suddenly Freeze's average value and the direct value of Rebound go up, since Freeze is very powerful on the Dark Mistress, an already strong creature that people are likely to try and use. Rebound becomes more powerful as it's more of a necessity to deal with Dark Mistresses, and thus the scoring of Rebound based units also goes up by quite a lot.

    Trying to set up a core design of based around statistical similarities between creatures and the power level of spells is frankly illogical. You set up a core design first, then the statistics and such come afterwards. If you want to make counterparts, that's fine, but you're trying to justify it by searching for a way to interpret the stats to say that you're right and that this is the intended result. As I said before, units are given stats based on what spells they have and vice versa. You cannot compare stats individually without looking at spells, and you can't simply convert a spell into a number to determine it's power because that is an extreme oversimplification and is only ever applicable to the current build. If it were that easy, then the game would already be balanced or at least be much more balanced than what it is.

    If you want to compare the strengths and weaknesses of units to determine their roles and what 'counterparts' they may have, you need a more intelligent analysis on what a unit is effective against, what they're ineffective against, and why. Simply comparing numbers won't get you that.
    Last edited by Metal Gear Rex; May 19th, 2016 at 02:29.
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  3. #123
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    If you want to do better pairs you should play the game more and see which creature/hero occups the same role. For me, Mistress is more similar to Ancher than to Samurai, and I dont think somebody will agree with me, but i think Samurai is closer to Demonspawn than to Mistress, I mean both have training as primary job, both uses a ranged spell when they are far from the objective but they are mainly melee, although one is really fast and strong and the other slow and weak.
    I agree that most of your pairs make no sense at all. You shouldnt focus on stats and spells but on roles if you want true balance.
    Also, if you post on a forum you should be open to critics, and you shouldnt think everyone is wrong except you if everybody agrees that you arent doing it the way it should be done.

  4. #124

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    OF course you can. There's a whole branch of mathematics and science devoted to doing precisely just that.


    I experimentally construct a statistical model by assigning values from 0 to 100 for each spell based on my personal experience with the value/usefulness of the spell in the game.

    For example how useful is Grenade ? 5-10 While it may be strong only 1 creature can use it the possessed one and deals splash and friendly fire damage and is hard to control. You can't depend on it to win battles. But you can depend on heal, freeze, rebound , speed , lightning and drain which are very strong and useful spells.

    How do you think people assign values to ideas, patents, art, and so forth. By experimentation and personal experience.
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 19th, 2016 at 02:51.

  5. #125

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    I don't go by feel.

    I go based on what already exists.

    The no 1 question is how can I make the least amount of changes to bring balance between the two factions.

    I don't go based on X feels closer to Y to me. I go based on X has similar stats to Y therefore changing making X and Y equivalent is the shortest path to balance.


    Sure I can balance Demonspawn with Samurai. I'll give him lightning, 80 damage, speed, and remove heal and missile. There! Is balanced.

  6. #126
    Beetle Ecarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    But again, as MGR said, thats relative. It depends in which creature you are facing. For example, Rebound against a Mistress means nothing but against a Wizard it makes a huge difference. And experimentation is exactly what I think you have done the less.

    You will never achieve balance that way. You should have creatures made for a specific job. For example, If you buff demonspawn you have one role already balanced and suddenly you have one deadweight creature less. With a good buff demonspawn could becomes useful and the player could stop throwing it to the portal to get a mistress because then you will lose power in one role.

    And not only buff Demonspawn but nerf samurai too. That way samurai is closer to other heroes and DS is closer to strong creatures. If you buff mistress or samurai for having them balanced, then you will want another types of creatures less just for having another Mistress/Samurai.

  7. #127
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    You rated Rebound and Heal the same, 100, yet removing Rebound from the Fairy will completely cripple her while removing Heal hurts, yes, but does not have nearly the same impact. Removing Rebound makes the Vampire, Warlock, Archer, Spider, Tentacle, Samurai, and Wizard significantly more effective against her. All of these units have projectiles that, previously would hit themselves because of Rebound, but now they hit the Fairy, which is hugely significant. They both have the same score, so why is one more significant than the other in this case? Are the numbers wrong, or is your logic wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    I experimentally construct a statistical model by assigning values from 0 to 100 for each spell based on my personal experience with the value/usefulness of the spell in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    I don't go by feel.

    I go based on what already exists.

    The no 1 question is how can I make the least amount of changes to bring balance between the two factions.

    I don't go based on X feels closer to Y to me.
    This seems like a contradiction. Personal experience is personal feelings, which you don't use, but apparently do? Please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    I go based on X has similar stats to Y therefore changing making X and Y equivalent is the shortest path to balance.
    The shortest path isn't always the best path. Perhaps you should worry about the quality of your changes, rather than the quantity. Giving the Dark Mistress Freeze is, yes, technically one change. But it's one that is crazy significant, making her matchups with most melee fighters better, but gives her a harder time against units with Rebound. It's changing the core design of the Mistress, which apparently is not within your goals.
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  8. #128

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Here it is good keeper v2.zip

    Here is the COMPLETE list of changes:

    - Dragon has a MELEE_ATTACK_FIST in addition to FIRE_BREATH at level 1 and added LORD (for Good Keeper campaigns)
    - Knight has GRENADE at level 3 (like Dragon)
    - Barbarian has GRENADE at level 10 (same as Orc)
    - Horny buffed strength to 150 (prev 100) and added added CANNOT_CHICKENIZE ONE_OF_KIND and LORD for Good Keeper campaigns
    - Avatar reduced health to 2000 (prev 3000), added 2250 pay (prev 1200), made priamry job TRAIN RESEARCH GUARD , annoyance in hand 10, added PERSUADE to anger jobs and finally removed IMMUNE_TO_BOULDER . This was required because you can now summon him via Temple sacrifice.
    - Fairy no longer has Heal
    - Warlock increased health to 500 (previous 350) and added REBOUND instead of Invis
    - Wizard no longer has IMMUNE_TO_GAS and his research skill reduced to 4 (prev 5)
    - Giant has Grenade at level 7 (same as Bile Demon) and Primary job TRAIN MANUFACTURE
    - Tunneler has primary job DIG TUNNEL and gold held 1500 as well as added SPECIAL_DIGGER and 80 speed
    - Beetle has primary job DIG TUNNEL and gold held 1500 as well as added SPECIAL_DIGGER and removed EVIL (due to a bug where create imp creates Bettles instead) and 80 speed
    - Dark mistress training skill is 4 and her training cost is increased to 38 (prev 18)
    - Archer is now attracted by LAIR 9 GARDEN 9 and has primary job MANUFACTURE GUARD
    - Priestess has primary job RESEARCH SCAVENGE
    - Hell Hound has primary job SEEK_THE_ENEMY GUARD
    - Monk has primary job RESAERCH TEMPLE_PRAY
    - Vampirte has primary job SCAVENGE RESEARCH
    - Troll has his spells swapped spells and speed moved 1 level earlier FIREBALL 4 SPEED 6 (prev SPEED 4 FIREBALL 7) and made troll prefer RANGED
    - Dwarf has 48 speed like Troll
    - Thief has EXPLORE as primary job
    - Demonspawn primary job TRAIN BARRACK


    Yep. That's it

    And yes it does make the game more balanced evil vs good.

    Now comepare my list with keeperfx changes. See his list here https://keeperklan.com/threads/2705-...upcoming-patch 5 times longer than mine.

    There are a few other minor changes like some hero rooms were reduced from 36 to 25 and attraction score was made to match evil creatures plus I added some enemies for ex DWARF hates GIANT, MONK hates VAMPIRE, THIEF hates KNIGHT, ORC hates BARBARIAN and AVATAR hates HORNY


    EDIT: I had to to a bunch of edits I kept writing the wrong thing. And also note that this is based on original DK settings.

    And here are the sacrifices. Add them ad the end of rules.cfg

    Code:
    ;GoodKeeper Sacrifices
    PosUniqFunc = COMPLETE_RESEARCH  THIEF THIEF
    PosUniqFunc = COMPLETE_MANUFACTR TUNNELLER TUNNELLER
    MkCreature =  GIANT              ARCHER ARCHER ARCHER
    MkCreature =  WIZARD             THIEF ARCHER
    MkCreature =  SAMURAI            TUNNELLER ARCHER
    MkCreature =  AVATAR             SAMURAI GIANT DWARF
    NegUniqFunc = ALL_CREATRS_ANGRY  AVATAR
    NegSpellAll = SPELL_CHICKEN      GIANT GIANT
    MkCreature =  BARBARIAN          DWARFA DWARFA
    MkCreature =  DWARFA             THIEF TUNNELLER
    MkCreature =  MONK               BARBARIAN TUNNELLER
    MkCreature =  WITCH              KNIGHT FAIRY
    MkCreature =  TUNNELLER          SAMURAI KNIGHT
    MkCreature =  FAIRY              KNIGHT WITCH
    MkCreature =  IMP                SAMURAI WITCH
    MkCreature =  THIEF        	     DWARFA TUNNELLER
    PosSpellAll = SPELL_SPEED        FAIRY WITCH
    PosSpellAll = SPELL_INVISIBILITY DWARFA FAIRY
    PosSpellAll = SPELL_HEAL         BARBARIAN ARCHER
    PosSpellAll = SPELL_REBOUND      SAMURAI FAIRY
    PosSpellAll = SPELL_ARMOUR       GIANT TUNNELLER
    PosSpellAll = SPELL_FLIGHT       THIEF FAIRY
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 19th, 2016 at 06:26.

  9. #129

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    EDIT:

    Even more up to date one that shows the disparity between some of these creatures

    Shows how bad wizard is vs warlock.
    [..]
    Notice how Dwarf is as strong as a Warlock so stupid
    and how a Thief is as strong as a Troll

    spells make a huge difference and most off the evil creatures are way worse than heroes.
    We all know there is disparity between different units. Nobody says that's a bad thing.
    Why is it a bad thing the Dwarf is as strong as a Warlock? The Warlock is one of the weakest units on the evil side, you get that in the campaign before you get the spider.

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    OF course you can. There's a whole branch of mathematics and science devoted to doing precisely just that.
    I experimentally construct a statistical model by assigning values from 0 to 100 for each spell based on my personal experience with the value/usefulness of the spell in the game.
    I wouldn't say science, but yes balance is analyzed an mathematics are used. This is done by people who understand the subject matter though, and they will have validation for their numbers. See several posts ago where I used assigned numbers to try and help you understand why you need give units on the same side each a role or people would only use the strongest creatures available.

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    I don't go by feel.
    I don't go based on X feels closer to Y to me. I go based on X has similar stats to Y therefore changing making X and Y equivalent is the shortest path to balance.

    Sure I can balance Demonspawn with Samurai. I'll give him lightning, 80 damage, speed, and remove heal and missile. There! Is balanced.
    You're right, the easiest way to balance good-evil would be to make true equivalent pairs, which you don't want to do. If not, you've got to do pairs on roles and the way they function, and balance the collective not the individual parts. For example it could be perfectly balanced to give one side a strong tank with weak support and the other side a weak tank with strong support.

    Quote Originally Posted by trollworkout View Post
    Here it is good keeper v2.zip

    Yep. That's it

    And yes it does make the game more balanced evil vs good.
    It might, but it's not complete with you also providing a map that shows how the play with these configs. It matters a lot on which units each side can end up having. Existing skirmish maps can't be played with it because those don't exist with good keepers, campaign levels and other single player maps can't be played with it because with such a huge buff to the dragon everything with them available is super easy.

  10. #130

    Thumbs up Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    We all know there is disparity between different units. Nobody says that's a bad thing.
    Why is it a bad thing the Dwarf is as strong as a Warlock? The Warlock is one of the weakest units on the evil side, you get that in the campaign before you get the spider.
    Dwarf is still stronger than a Warlock. Warlock got buffed by 50 HP and has REBOUND instead of INVISIBILITY. These changes only affect Warlock vs ranged missile using heroes. All melee units are just as strong against a Warlock.



    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I wouldn't say science, but yes balance is analyzed an mathematics are used. This is done by people who understand the subject matter though, and they will have validation for their numbers. See several posts ago where I used assigned numbers to try and help you understand why you need give units on the same side each a role or people would only use the strongest creatures available.
    Anyone can understand it if you spend enough time to learn the formulas. I actually had to learn the math how to create a correlation formula and how balancing is done for spell effects which are not directly quantifiable using math. As I said above it was done by creating a mathematic model: spells have a certain weight out of maximum creature score and each spell has a unique weight based on usefulness. This usefulness of each spell I got it from forums discussions and walk troughs.



    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    You're right, the easiest way to balance good-evil would be to make true equivalent pairs, which you don't want to do. If not, you've got to do pairs on roles and the way they function, and balance the collective not the individual parts. For example it could be perfectly balanced to give one side a strong tank with weak support and the other side a weak tank with strong support.
    I know I am right. But I did not want to create true equivalent pairs. I wanted to keep the unique flavour of each unit. IN other words be fair without being identical.



    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    It might, but it's not complete with you also providing a map that shows how the play with these configs. It matters a lot on which units each side can end up having. Existing skirmish maps can't be played with it because those don't exist with good keepers, campaign levels and other single player maps can't be played with it because with such a huge buff to the dragon everything with them available is super easy.
    That's your job. I don't do maps.



    So far this has been a great balance patch. I have been playing with this for a while and really enjoy it. Despite all the hate is actually very successful with only minimal changes.

    Some of the unique things that I really enjoy are the TUNNELLER / BETTLE ability to help out Imps to do digging. If you ever run out of gold or imps you can still get there lil guys to help you out. NEAT!

    Troll is ranged support unit. All the sudden he becomes quite interesting and fun unit comparative to shitty Archer in a sense.

    All heroes can be summoned via sacrifices at the Temple. Mass spells can also be cast via sacrifices.


    ALL in ALL I'd say is great if you want to play with your friends in multiplayer as either Good or Evil and still have a fair game.

    BTW Been using this for a while and is just as awesome as it was 1 year ago. Best balance patch I ever done.

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