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Thread: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

  
  1. #11

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    hey i tried your map thanks a lot

    so as i suspected knight and samurai and wizard and fairy are the biggest damage dealers. the rebound practically cancels all damage.

    i reduced knight and samurai damage to 60 and all heroes lost. pretty much their whole damage is based on samurai and knight supported by wizard and fairy. those 4 are the meat of hero's army. wizard died last.

    i am really close to getting it more balanced.

  2. #12
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Let's assume for one second that the sets of Heroes and Creatures are even supposed to be balanced between each other at all (they aren't at all, I don't know how the Good Keeper campaign aims to deal with this or if it even matters)

    If you look at the creatures and Heroes purely statistically, Creatures look far superior, particularly health-wise. Bile Demons have 1200 health, Dragons have 900 health, Vampires have 800 health, and the Heroes' "beefy" Barbarian and Giant units have 700 and 650 health respectively, and nothing except the Knight (and the Avatar) surpasses 700 health.

    However, the Hero units' strengths lie more in offense (at higher levels). They have the combinations of the most powerful spells with creatures that can make good use of them:
    • Three Heroes have Lightning, hands down and by far the most powerful spell by damage-per-second on a stationary target outside of possession. These are the Samurai, Witch, and Fairy. By contrast, only the Mistress has it on the Creature side.
    • Three Heroes also have Speed Up. These are the Samurai (again), Giant and Archer. Particularly the former two can very potently use it to increase their melee dps to high levels - higher than the Orc and especially higher than the Hound or Fly (lol).
    • Three Heroes have Freeze and three creatures have Freeze. However, take into consideration that the Heroes with Freeze include the moderate-to-powerful Samurai, Fairy and Wizard, while the Creatures with Freeze include the moderate-to-cannon-fodder Beetle, Spider and Tentacle. Freeze is more valuable for the Hero units because they have more time to inflict significant damage during the Freeze period.
    • Five Heroes have Rebound (as opposed to none of the Creatures, bar the Ghost, which can be considered as neutral in this argument), which completely nullifies everything Warlocks can do, the main damage source for Dragons (outside of WoP which doesn't do damage in the original), completely nullifies all the creatures with Freeze, and nullifies everything else that isn't a creature with decent melee damage or is the Mistress.
    • The Knight's combination of bulk, Heal, dps, and Rebound means he easily beats out every unit that isn't the Mistress or Bile Demon. Dragons can't match the damage, every other melee unit is out-tanked at a minimum, every other ranged or support unit is made irrelevant by Rebound.


    Really, the problem here is that outside of the Bile Demon and Mistress, there are hardly any creatures that are all that good at dealing damage. The Dragon is crippled by the lack of melee, the Warlock has to rely on Meteor which is very slow outside of possession, the Orc is the only other creature with decent damage output (although 65 strength is a notable step below the Bile Demon, Knight and Samurai's 80 and Giant's 100) and it all goes far downhill from there. Add to that the superior support and anti-support from just about every Hero creature, and it's not that surprising that a lineup of every standard Hero creature would defeat that of every standard Creature exclusive unit.


    Regarding things like research and manufacturing, is it necessary for the Hero and Creature sides to be equal in both research power and manufacturing power? Creatures already have the major advantage of Fly and Beetle recipes which makes late-game researching infinitely easier on the Creature side. That aside, having each side be better at different things can still provide a balanced gameplay experience while keeping both sides interesting, unique, and diverse.
    Last edited by Mothrayas; May 14th, 2016 at 00:09.

    The Awakening


  3. #13

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Well, then also keep in mind that heroes start out weak and grow strong later. A lvl 1 spider will eat a lvl 1 fairy for breakfast, but at lvl 10 a fairy can destroy an almost limitless number of spiders as long as they don't come all at once. A lvl4 wizard gets destroyed by a lvl4 warlock but at lvl5 the tables are turned.
    And creature composition matters as well. I just made one party of one each because you thought that creatures were stronger than heroes, but if you balance just this party other might break. There are many units that do very well against some, and very poorly against others.

    If you want to truly try to balance heroes against creatures for fights between good-keepers against evil-keepers, have computer players duke it out. Make a map where you allow one player to only attract heroes through his portal and the other creatures and see who wins most often.

    But even when you have your balance, what's the use? Surely you can make the original campaign a bit more difficult by making heroes stronger, but at the same time the balance of many downloadable maps will be just broken. Some will be too easy, some too difficult and some might even become completely unplayable.

  4. #14

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Right. All good points.

    I have been experimenting with that map you gave me. I think I have finally balanced more or less all creature stats.

    The problem with heroes that I haven't noticed is they have A LOT of crowd control: freezes, stuns, slows plus many of them get access to that rebound spell which is OP as heck. Also many heroes get access to speed.

    Here is a new concept . normal combat humanoids are health 600

    Dark mistress = health 600 this one is the only change from vanilla DK for evil
    spider = health 500

    Giant = same except reduce strength to 90
    Samurai = health 600 while still just as OP he dies a bit faster
    Knight = health 600 strength 55 dexterity 50 this reduces the OP power of knight while still just as tanky with heal and rebound.
    Monk = defence 120 this makes him kind of a kung fu master able to dodge melee blows but still weak to range and magic
    Barbarian = health 600
    Dwarf = strength 40 makes him more like troll power
    Tunneler = strength 25 more like a bug power



    also in regards to the fly and bug research and manufacture power i have devised a plan. for most vanilla recipes you can use
    thief = fly
    tunneler = bug
    archer = spider

    to get the good keeper counterpart spells and sacrifices. the keeperfx extended sacrifices are not available to good keeper.

    ; Good Keeper
    MkGoodHero = AVATAR TUNNELER KNIGHT SAMURAI
    PosUniqFunc = COMPLETE_RESEARCH THIEF THIEF
    PosUniqFunc = COMPLETE_MANUFACTR TUNNELER TUNNELER
    MkGoodHero = GIANT ARCHER ARCHER ARCHER
    MkCreature = WIZARD THIEF ARCHER
    MkCreature = SAMURAI TUNNELER ARCHER
    NegUniqFunc = ALL_CREATRS_ANGRY AVATAR
    MkCreature = DEMONSPAWN DWARF TUNNELER
    MkCreature = ORC DWARF DWARF BARBARIAN
    MkCreature = SORCEROR THIEF ARCHER WIZARD
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 14th, 2016 at 01:21.

  5. #15

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    i been playtesting my changes on the map you provided and now is pretty random. about 50 50 change one side will win.

    i think is finally balanced. the knight seems quite weak right now maybe i need to up his strength over 600 as if he's wearing some armor make him close to a dragon. or up his armor.

    i am doing more checks against vanilla values right now.

    i upped the spider health to 500 making him a bit more useful throughout the game early to late game.

    and lowered both tunneler to 25 and dwarf to 40 damage. this will make them tanky but not as deadly. i may up the giant back to 100 power.

  6. #16

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Hey guys thanks for the feedback and input. Know that I read everything you say.

    I have played DK 1 many times and finished it a bunch of times and even dabbled with creatures.cfg back in the day to balance it out. With KeeperFX is waaay easier. Now I can really make my dream come true of true equality between the two sides. True equality is a relative term since the two sides have different champions and i guess tactics.

    Anyway here is another update. I have reverted some of the changes I made.

    GOOD KEEPER
    Barbarian => 600hp (prev 700hp) + all other stats vanilla
    Giant => 40dex (prev 80) + secondary job = MANUFACTURE + all other stats vanilla
    Samurai => 600 hp (prev 700) + all other stats vanilla
    Knight => 700hp (prev 950) + 50dex (prev 150) + 60str (prev 80) + 30def (prev 100) + all other stats vanilla (these changes make him closer to Dragon using rebound and heal for sustain)
    Avatar => 2000 hp (prev 3000) + 100str (prev 150) + secondary job = RESEARCH + all other stats vanilla (makes it like Horny more or less)
    Tunneler => 20str (prev 40) + gold carry = 1500 + primary job = DIG + secondary job = TUNNEL + all other stats vanilla (behaves like an imp 100%)
    Dwarf => 40str (prev 50) + gold carry = 1500 + speed 48 + all other stats vanilla (more durable troll good for battle but with lower manufacturing value)
    Archer => manufacture value = 3 (prev 2) + all other stats vanilla
    Monk => 120def (prev 20) + all other stats vanilla (monk is now kinda like a kung fu master able to dodge melee blows but still quite weak to ranged or magic damage making him more valuable overall)
    Thief => 80def (prev 20) + all other stats vanilla (thief, like monk, can now dodge around blows making him a bit more useful)


    EVIL KEEPER
    Dark Mistress => reverted to vanilla stats
    Spider => vanilla stats
    Bug => gold carry = 1500 + primary job = DIG + secondary job = TUNNEL (this guy is like a tunneler now but with higher 25 damage and less durability and also behaves like an imp although really damn slow he can carry 3 times more gold)




    Tunneler / Beetle (aka Bug)
    If you run out of gold and all your imps die you can still use them to get back into the game. I always thought the first Imp should cost 0 gold not 150. I have often used lightning to kill all the enemy Keepers' imps to bring them to 0 gold so they can't afford making more imps. Now this won't really work anymore. This also gives more utility to Bug making him more useful in the game. I usually just got rid of them or kept them around only for sacrifice but now he can actually contribute a bit by digging stuff .


    There is a bug in KeeperFX where if you make a creature a digger and give it SPECIAL_DIGGER create imp will make that creature instead of an imp. To fix it simply remove EVIL from its description. SO bug is no longer EVIL although is still an insect. I also added the proper animations for pretty_dance and for resting. It behaves 100% like an imp.
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 14th, 2016 at 04:26.

  7. #17

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    I went ahead and made a map just for you: GoodKeeper.zip

    On this map you can only observe, and there's a 'Hero keeper' and a regular evil keeper. You can test which one is stronger.
    - Use frameskip (Ctrl + '+') to speed up the game so you don't have to wait as long.
    - Whenever you cast the create imp spell, both players are attacked by a lvl7 barbarian. Use this to check how well the players can stand harassment.
    - You can use the 'destroy wall' spell to connect their dungeons together and have them fight to the dead.
    - Creatures don't return to the pool, so each creature can only be used once.

    You'll find that with the regular creature files the evil keeper will win of you make them fight quickly, the good keeper will win if you give them time to train up.

  8. #18

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    I'm just going to put my 2 cents here, Heros are meant to be OP on Dungeon Keeper (Otherwise no challenge )
    Tbh the only reason you win the campaign its cause you're a human and no one is controlling the heros.

  9. #19

    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I went ahead and made a map just for you: GoodKeeper.zip

    On this map you can only observe, and there's a 'Hero keeper' and a regular evil keeper. You can test which one is stronger.
    - Use frameskip (Ctrl + '+') to speed up the game so you don't have to wait as long.
    - Whenever you cast the create imp spell, both players are attacked by a lvl7 barbarian. Use this to check how well the players can stand harassment.
    - You can use the 'destroy wall' spell to connect their dungeons together and have them fight to the dead.
    - Creatures don't return to the pool, so each creature can only be used once.

    You'll find that with the regular creature files the evil keeper will win of you make them fight quickly, the good keeper will win if you give them time to train up.
    Thank you very much. This indeed may prove most handy. I will use this right away.

    My balancing now aims to be as close to vanilla as possible without changing too many stats and attributes or spells. I want all the creatures and heroes to feel the same just be balanced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maxwell View Post
    I'm just going to put my 2 cents here, Heros are meant to be OP on Dungeon Keeper (Otherwise no challenge )
    Tbh the only reason you win the campaign its cause you're a human and no one is controlling the heros.
    Maxwell , you are correct but my intention is to balance Good and Evil for regular gameplay. That is giving players the ability to play as Good or as Evil in the same map (campaign or multiplayer) and stay fair.

    As things are Heroes are currently unbalanced.

    I know that Knight is supposed to be OP lord of the land, however, if you play as a Good Keeper and train 8 thieves is GG cause they will turtle and tank forever while dealing 80 damage higher than most Evil Keeper's creatures. So that's not fair.

    The issues are

    many heroes get access to awesome creature spells: Freeze, Rebound, Lightning, Drain, Speed
    heroes have very low manufacturing potential
    heroes have overpowered research potential having a lot of researchers and Wizard which has highest research in the game
    underwhelming creatures: monk, witch

    2 amazing spellcasters: Fairy, Wizard + 1 spellcaster/fighter : Samurai = these guys will shred evil creatures hard
    2 overpowered tanks with high damage : Avatar, Knight = these guys are challenging to play against but no fun when they are on your side

    To fix these issues i raised Archer manufacturing by 1, lowered Wizard research by 1, lowered Fairy research by 2 and she needs Graveyard 1 to join your dungeon, Avatar & Knight are both nerfed closer to Horny & Dragon, Samurai health slightly nerfed to compensate for being so OP offensively. Plus I added most vanilla DK (not the KeeperFX extended ones) sacrifices for Good Keeper counterparts like you can complete research 2 Thieves, complete manufacturing 2 Tunnelers, summon Avatar 1 Tunneler 1 Samurai 1 Knight, and all the other ones.
    For sacrificing purposes the general rule is
    Fly = Thief
    Bug = Tunneler
    Archer = Spider

    Also Bug is now like a Tunneler a digger and will help imps dig , pretty dance walls, claim and carry items.

    Also Tunneler, Knight, Bug, Samurai will NOT do scavenge. These are considered creatures or heroes that stay loyal to the Keeper hence why sacrificing all the loyal heroes gives you the Avatar. This is also so you don't steal extra tunneler/bug which boost digging for free.

    Fly and Thief do not stay loyal so they can be scavenged to boost research or for other sacrificing potential.

    This mechanic limits 1/3 key creatures for temple Bug/Tunneler and thus nerfing the power of sacrificing.
    Last edited by trollworkout; May 14th, 2016 at 17:01.

  10. #20
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: GOOD/EVIL creature balancing for Good Keeper plays or in general

    Back in the very early days of WftO design discussion, back when it was still a Dungeon Keeper fan-game that had barely left the idea phase, balance between Heroes and Creatures was discussed a lot. The general agreement at the time was that Hero units would be stronger overall, but to balance that point, they would have a lower max capacity of creatures. Due to how Dungeon Keeper 1 scripting works, it wouldn't exactly work without some modifications, but just throwing that out there.

    I'm not sure why "heroes have very low manufacturing potential" is listed as an issue. First of all, the Dwarf has a manufacturing rate of 3, the same as the Bile Demon and Orc, so it isn't that drastic. Then the Samurai, Giant and Archer have a rate of 2 but all learn Speed Up, so they can work almost as effectively as a Bile Demon anyway. Second of all, wouldn't this sort of thing actually be good as a balancing factor? Heroes could have stronger units overall but be less able to rely on traps to cover their defensive needs, to balance it out. This sort of thing is how faction balancing works in any half-decent RTS game. If every faction is completely identical in every statistical aspect, that's just boring.

    "Heroes have overpowered research potential" similarly can actually be a balancing factor, but either way is undone by the creatures' side having Fly Temple sacrifices. Creatures lose early on in researching, but they can get late-game rooms and spells much earlier as soon as the Temple is researched.

    You note that the Monk and Witch are underwhelming creatures, which is false in my opinion (Witch has the second best ranged caster DPS on the Heroes' side besides the very frail Fairy, has Rebound to shut down Dragon or Warlocks' ranged offense, their only real flaw is that the Poison Gas+Wind combination is janky as hell; Monks have a veritable ranged arsenal at higher levels combined with Word of Power to do solid damage), but that aside, that disregards the hordes of underwhelming Creatures - Fly, Beetle, Spider, Tentacle, Demon Spawn are all completely useless for combat purposes or for anything other than Temple sacrifice fodder.

    Training Thieves into Knights is fun but takes an eternity and a half, so it's only useful for single-player situations where you have a lot of time on your hands and have Gems available (situations in which all sense of balance is thrown out of the window anyway). And before they become Knights, Thieves are useless and nothing but cannon fodder.

    If you want to balance Heroes and downgrade them to creature level, you'll want to nerf some of their key units' offensive potential or overpowering spells. For example, reduce Giant strength to 80, remove either Rebound or Heal from the Knight, remove one of Lightning, Freeze or Speed from the Samurai, remove Rebound from either the Wizard or the Witch (Fairy is way too frail without it) and I think you'll be much closer to having them balanced for combat already.

    The Awakening


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