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Thread: Balance Suggestion: Training Costs

  1. #1

    Default Balance Suggestion: Training Costs

    • Problem:

    In short, it is cheaper to train a Dragon to Level 10 than a ghost, Tentacle or spider

    • The Details:

    Ok, so we currently have 2 values when it comes to training: TrainingValue (exp gained per n seconds) and TrainingCost (cost in gold per n seconds in the training room). How they both interact means that some of the stronger creatures work out to be very cheap to train (compared to others), despite having a higher cost. The best way of looking at this is with an example...

    Let's say I have a Ghost with a TrainingValue of 1 (so let's say that's 1 exp per second)

    I also have a Dragon with a TrainingValue of 3 (so 3 exp per second)

    The respective costs for both are 20 and 40... so it would appear that the Dragon costs twice as much to train. But the key is: the cost is only on the time spent in the training room... so if a creature spends less time in the training room... it costs less in the long run.

    With me so far?

    So let's just say that cost goes every 10 seconds. Now let's also say that both need 60 exp to get to the next level (it makes the next calculation easier). Going by the training values, the Ghost will take 60 seconds in the training room (at 1 exp per second) but the Dragon only takes 20 seconds (at 3 exp per second)

    Where the ghost takes 60 seconds, that means we will get 6 'triggers' of the TrainingCost - So costs us 120 gold overall (6 x 20) to get 60 exp for our ghost
    The Dragon, however, only takes 20 seconds so gets only 2 triggers of the TrainingCost... which means it only cost 80 gold (2 x 40) - So the dragon is actually 1/3 cheaper to train overall than the ghost

    Considering the relative wages / strengths... this seems a bit imbalanced, so I wanted to throw it out to the team in case it was of some use

    • Proposal:

    Please find the breakdown of numbers below (the order is exactly the same as the creature cfg files, for ease of reading)

    • Current CpE - Stands for 'Current Cost per Experience' - Calculated at TrainingCost / TrainingValue based upon the vanilla DK Game
    • Proposed CpE is the new rate I wish to propose
    • New Value is the exact value for TrainingCost for each creature for the cfg files as of version 0.32 - Calculated as Proposed CpE * TrainingValue
    • Difference is a quick breakdown of the changes at at a high level. I've tried to balance both increases and reductions to retain roughly the same cost overall

    Name		Current CpE	Proposed CpE	New Value (cfg 0.32)	Difference
    Archer		8		8		32			-
    Avatar		25		150		600			+500%
    Barbarian	13.3		13		39			-2.5%
    Bile Demon	19		20		40			+5%
    Beetle		8		5		5			-37.5%
    Dark Mistress	12		20		40			+66.6%
    Demon Spawn	7.5		7		14			-6.6%
    Dragon		13.3		20		60			+50%
    Dwarf		5		5		10			-
    Fairy		4		8		8			+100%*
    Fly		5		5		5			-
    Ghost		20		10		20			-50%
    Giant		17.5		17.5		35			-
    Hellhound	7		7		14			-
    Horned Reaper	150		150		150			-
    Knight		13.3		25		75			+87.5%
    Imp		10		3		3			-70%
    Monk		12		12		24			-
    Orc		7.5		7.5		15			-
    Samuri		12.5		20		80			+60%
    Skeleton	5		5		20			-
    Sorceror	15		15		30			-
    Spider		18		8		16			-55.5%
    Tentacle	14		10		20			-28%
    Thief		12		7		7			-41.6%
    Troll		12		10		20			-16.6%
    Tunneller	10		5		5			-50%
    Vampire		12.5		20		80			+60%
    Witch		8		8		16			-
    Wizard		15		15		30			-
    *I appreciate the Fairy seems a bit out of place. But her original training cost was astronomically low. Seriously, if you're on a budget... train fairies

    All critique, comments, thoughts and cookies welcome!
    Last edited by Mullertime; June 28th, 2016 at 21:23.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Balance Suggestion: Training Costs

    Have you considered the fact that creatures with the speed spell train 50% faster from that point forward?
    And that there's a third value to consider, namely 'Train to Level'. A vampire takes 215000 training points to complete training, but a ghost only 84000 points. So that's over a 2.5 times difference.

    And any reason to go with such an ancient KeeperFX version? Why not 0.4.6?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Balance Suggestion: Training Costs

    Aren't dedicated fighters supposed to train faster than researchers?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Balance Suggestion: Training Costs


    1. I have indeed. It's particularly why I wanted to nerf the mistress / samuri. I appreciate this primarily gives the Troll quite a hefty buff - But I feel is a fair trade-off where they're so weak in combat

    2. Yeah, the vamp was a pain to balance for that very reason. Whilst not overly damaging, they are tough as nails in later levels (particularly with the resurrection): So I started them off with the same CpE as others (so they benefit from a cheaper start, comparatively) and then let the higher exp requirements inflate the cost at later levels. Do you feel I've nerfed them a bit too hard?

    3. Pardon the confusion: It is indeed KeeperFX 0.4.6 (patch 1821). The creature cfg files come with their own version numbers (at the top of the file) - So was I referencing them (which is 0.32)


    They do indeed, and it's precisely that reason which also makes many of them cheaper to get to Level 10 than others (which, to me, contradicts the higher upkeep costs somewhat)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Balance Suggestion: Training Costs

    I don't know if the vampire is nerfed too hard,.... They are powerful at later levels but as they are already slow and expensive to train, and you usually have quite a few I tend to stop training them before they reach level 10 on maps with limited gold. With a lot more costs, even more so.

    I have not tested your values or anything, but in principle I'm not against making it cheaper to fully train creatures with low training values. Perhaps it would be better still - but that is a source change, not simply what we can do with the configs - if instead of changing the TrainingCost per tick, that the time between gold ticks if you will is dependent on the training level. So that a creature with trainingvalue 1, who gains exp from training every 30 seconds, costs gold every 30 seconds, and a creature with training value 3, pays every 10 seconds.

    This also makes it very easy to see some creatures train faster then others: This makes info available only in the configs but important to the player visible ingame.

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