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Thread: Why DK1 is better than DK2

  
  1. #21
    Fly Gold Knight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Yes, that's also up to the mapmaker. So now you need a good mapmaker to make a halfway decent map. If it was easy to make a good map, there would be more good maps to play.
    That's quite simply how it works with most games. Generally, players most familiar with a game will always have the best potential for good map design, regardless of what game it is. Sure, anyone can just place down a few dozen lv 10 good Horned Reapers or something, but challenge is almost never a direct consequence of good design, and vice versa. I think I'd usually take good design + lacking challenge over lacking design + good challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    And yes, I just linked that map because I made it thinking it will be quite difficult to beat even for experienced players, and I have given access to boulder traps and most spells. Those things don't make maps easy.
    Yeah, I thought so. It's actually a really decent map - definitely one of the more challenging ones I've experienced. You could have given me a Prison and Torture Chamber in that map and I would likely never have used them. Most things that are typically powerful for players are no where near as effective under constant harrassment with limited gold. Having no gold pretty much nullifies any rooms or spells that can be considered overpowered. I'm going to go through it again, but this time walling myself in for a much longer time.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    On maps without heal spell or with limited gold I just build a very large additional hatchery next to the prison and torture room. It goes quite quickly as most creatures don't need to many to be full health.
    That's still a lot of micromanagement though. There's also an increase in upkeep costs which can make quite a difference. But yeah, I admit it's not really much of a deterent or downside. There are lots of elements that can be played with to reduce its effectiveness though, such as giving converted creatures/heroes higher wages, having them stay angry once they turn to your side (never made sense that a torture victim went form ultra mad to instantly happy), having them slowly anger in the lair or hand (like Horny), introducing more creature-hero rivalries, etc.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Of course a skilled mapmaker will generally be able to make better maps than an unskilled one, but I disagree that on 'most' games it is so the game requires so much 'map' to make the gameplay actually work. DK1 is from 1997, so is Total Annihilation. It had thousands of maps released, and basically all of them were fun. Age of Empires, same year, also basically all custom maps were perfectly playable. Most games with a level editor the community manages to pump out decent content.
    Yet dungeon keeper 1 was released with just 20+15 maps, can be finished in a few hours, had over a thousand community maps, several campaigns included in KeeperFX, and yet the community can't come up with a short list of maps that are generally well liked. Especially considering most people don't like pressure or low amounts of gold in this game. I've already linked to this topic, and there are a few maps I quite liked, but they were few and far between and even fewer that actually blew me away. However, with no additional 'skilled map design' from that list I can easily point to 30 maps that would instantly play out a lot better if the prison/torture effectiveness could be reduced.

    Feeding prisoners chickens, yes, it takes a bit of micro, but the cost of the hatchery is already offset after one healed creature and few maps with enough pressure for this micro to manage. I actually made a map around exactly this mechanic - with a prison/torture room, limited hatchery and high pressure to keep the player on his toes, but I found it actually ended up no fun.

    And elements to reduce effectiveness of converting,... well I would love to see a mechanic where having too many/too strong heroes compared to the creatures in your army they would suddenly rebel when the time was right. I made this feature request in KeeperFX a little while ago to sorta get it, but won't happen.

  3. #23
    Fly Gold Knight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Of course a skilled mapmaker will generally be able to make better maps than an unskilled one, but I disagree that on 'most' games it is so the game requires so much 'map' to make the gameplay actually work. DK1 is from 1997, so is Total Annihilation. It had thousands of maps released, and basically all of them were fun. Age of Empires, same year, also basically all custom maps were perfectly playable. Most games with a level editor the community manages to pump out decent content.
    Sorry, I did not make myself quite clear. I was making that statement in relation to games that aren't so dependent on the map for their gameplay. Of course, typical RTS games that mostly derive their action from the players rather than the maps don't require anywhere near as much knowledge of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Yet dungeon keeper 1 was released with just 20+15 maps, can be finished in a few hours, had over a thousand community maps, several campaigns included in KeeperFX, and yet the community can't come up with a short list of maps that are generally well liked. Especially considering most people don't like pressure or low amounts of gold in this game. I've already linked to this topic, and there are a few maps I quite liked, but they were few and far between and even fewer that actually blew me away. However, with no additional 'skilled map design' from that list I can easily point to 30 maps that would instantly play out a lot better if the prison/torture effectiveness could be reduced.
    I guess DK1 (at least in the single player department) just isn't that challenging of a game. I've never really had any trouble beating a map, but I've still had incredible fun in doing so. I don't think DK1 is really much of a true RTS if it can be even called one, but more of a simulation game. Games like SimCity or Transport Tycoon provide a very similar experience, rarely offering any real "challenge," but providing endless hours of enjoyment. Of course, as soon as competitive play is introduced, the story is very different.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Feeding prisoners chickens, yes, it takes a bit of micro, but the cost of the hatchery is already offset after one healed creature and few maps with enough pressure for this micro to manage. I actually made a map around exactly this mechanic - with a prison/torture room, limited hatchery and high pressure to keep the player on his toes, but I found it actually ended up no fun.
    That's the problem - most DK players don't seem to like any form of harrassment or constant micromanagement. I think it's just the way the game is, and people who play DK are really just playing it for the "empire-building" and somewhat "evil" aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    And elements to reduce effectiveness of converting,... well I would love to see a mechanic where having too many/too strong heroes compared to the creatures in your army they would suddenly rebel when the time was right. I made this feature request in KeeperFX a little while ago to sorta get it, but won't happen.
    An interesting an idea, and a very good suggestion. You can still do something similar by simply counting how many heroes the player has though.

    And I replayed Frozen Legion and walled myself in, but that turned out to be even easier.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    I agree the dungeon builder is a genre on its own, more sim than rts, but sim games usually don't have/need any map editors at all. In DK1 when you make a map, your focus is not in doing what's fun, but on preventing having all the stuff there that breaks the game, and that's a shame. A bit more polish and balance would have made the game better than it already is.

    I don't prefer my maps overly difficult either. But the maps where you just convert small groups of heroes to your cause until you have 200 and you no loner have to pay attention to the groups of lvl 10 avatars attacking you just become too boring. I like to focus on dungeon building, but I want to feel rewarded for actually having a good dungeon, and that needs an enemy putting up a bit of a fight.



    I was already failing to understand what you meant by 'walling in', but I see you're playing it on a recent official nightly that has a bug allowing you to pick up the special without claiming the ground. You're not supposed to be able to pick up specials without claiming the ground under it, so you shouldn't be able to wall in on this map at all. Play it with KeeperFX Unofficial, KeeperFX 0.4.6 release, or KeeperFX 0.4.6.1793. It becomes a whole other ballgame if heroes come straight away before you've got time to train.
    If you don't mind a bit of pressure, you could also try Thug of War, challenging map where I disable the prison at some point.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I agree the dungeon builder is a genre on its own, more sim than rts, but sim games usually don't have/need any map editors at all. In DK1 when you make a map, your focus is not in doing what's fun, but on preventing having all the stuff there that breaks the game, and that's a shame. A bit more polish and balance would have made the game better than it already is.
    Yeah, and the entire game is like that. Giving the player access to almost anything can potentially be sending them down easy street. It's just a consequence of map design with games like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I don't prefer my maps overly difficult either. But the maps where you just convert small groups of heroes to your cause until you have 200 and you no loner have to pay attention to the groups of lvl 10 avatars attacking you just become too boring. I like to focus on dungeon building, but I want to feel rewarded for actually having a good dungeon, and that needs an enemy putting up a bit of a fight.
    I used to convert heroes when I was a lot younger, but lately I rarely do for some reason. I guess there may be some kind of subconcious "challenge seeking" going on or something that is preventing me from doing so. If it's ever a problem, mappers can just not give the player a Prison or if they do, have it as one that can be captured but not buildable.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I was already failing to understand what you meant by 'walling in', but I see you're playing it on a recent official nightly that has a bug allowing you to pick up the special without claiming the ground. You're not supposed to be able to pick up specials without claiming the ground under it, so you shouldn't be able to wall in on this map at all. Play it with KeeperFX Unofficial, KeeperFX 0.4.6 release, or KeeperFX 0.4.6.1793. It becomes a whole other ballgame if heroes come straight away before you've got time to train.
    If you don't mind a bit of pressure, you could also try Thug of War, challenging map where I disable the prison at some point.
    You mean the Steal Hero Special? I never picked it up, and I'm not on any version that allows doing so without claimed territory beneath it. The video I linked in my previous post also shows its existence when the map overview is displayed. I'm playing on the version of 0.4.6 Unofficial that you provided here on the forums. Besides that, walling in is fairly easy unless the Tunneller parties spawn right beside your dungeon at the very beginning, which they don't in this map.

    I will try that map as well, thanks!

  6. #26

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by Gold Knight View Post
    You mean the Steal Hero Special? I never picked it up, and I'm not on any version that allows doing so without claimed territory beneath it. The video I linked in my previous post also shows its existence when the map overview is displayed. I'm playing on the version of 0.4.6 Unofficial that you provided here on the forums. Besides that, walling in is fairly easy unless the Tunneller parties spawn right beside your dungeon at the very beginning, which they don't in this map.
    Than I did something wrong and I don't understand what. You aren't supposed to be able to do anything before you get your first creature, and the only way to get your first creature is through the hero special. What went wrong, did you manage to get a creature somehow? You didn't transfer a creature into this map from a previous one did you?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Than I did something wrong and I don't understand what. You aren't supposed to be able to do anything before you get your first creature, and the only way to get your first creature is through the hero special. What went wrong, did you manage to get a creature somehow? You didn't transfer a creature into this map from a previous one did you?
    I had a look at the map script and it looks like line 200 IF(PLAYER0,TOTAL_GOLD_MINED >= 1050) is triggered at the start, as the quick information about "Welcome to hard mode" is displayed the moment I enter the map. No creatures were transferred.

    With Thug of War, I found I could just use a Guard Post to wall off the entrance to my base and then use the Trolls to venture out and Grenade snipe the enemy heroes until they eventually tunnelled out and left their Dungeon Heart exposed. I think it was really more just time-consuming, particularly with the insane amount of gold bags I had to pick up (many of which got stuck in walls). One problem I noticed was the Tunneller not spawning from the hero Dungeon Heart if there are too many heroes on the map (I had to kill some enemies before the timer reached 0). Also, several hero parties were getting stuck in corners of the Guard Posts / water in the bottom left of the map. That stupid rapid heal bug with the Avatar (which I recorded on another map) was also especially annoying.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    That really is strange,... I have no idea why that script is triggered for you. I've redownloaded the map from this website, and tested it again, and that script really doesn't trigger for me unless I mine gold. Do you have any idea why it would trigger for you?

    And yeah, I guess you could exploit Thug of War like that, I did not consider there would be players that would not claim the library. I made a small update that would prevent this. You now have to research the guard post so should not be able to wall in and have to actually play the map as intended.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    "Dungeon Keeper just isn't a challenging game".

    Yeah that's the crux of it. Either you go full dungeon-sim and diminish the RTS aspect or you take the WFTO route and drop the sim in favour of full RTS. DK1 tries to straddle the line and ultimately does a shit job of both.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    That really is strange,... I have no idea why that script is triggered for you. I've redownloaded the map from this website, and tested it again, and that script really doesn't trigger for me unless I mine gold. Do you have any idea why it would trigger for you?
    Strangely enough, when I try it now, it does not trigger unless I mine the gold. But when I tested it again while making my previous post, it definitely occurred as soon as I entered the map, as it had originally done so the previous times I played it. Perhaps there is some kind of memory address inconsistency with the TOTAL_GOLD_MINED variable, or it might not reset properly after completing another map. Either way, it's no longer happening for now. If it does happen again, I'll post a recording of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    And yeah, I guess you could exploit Thug of War like that, I did not consider there would be players that would not claim the library. I made a small update that would prevent this. You now have to research the guard post so should not be able to wall in and have to actually play the map as intended.
    Haha yeah, I have a habit of finding ways of beating maps that aren't the way the map designer intended. I'll give it a shot without the Guard Post being available at the start and see how it goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woudo View Post
    "Dungeon Keeper just isn't a challenging game".

    Yeah that's the crux of it. Either you go full dungeon-sim and diminish the RTS aspect or you take the WFTO route and drop the sim in favour of full RTS. DK1 tries to straddle the line and ultimately does a shit job of both.
    I believe so. It's unfortunate though, because it's such a fun and unique concept. I think there is a lot of potential for a game to work wonderfully as both a sim and RTS. DK1 made a very good attempt, but it missed the mark.

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