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Thread: Why DK1 is better than DK2

  1. #51
    Lords of Nether<br />Lead Game Designer DBlac's Avatar
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    Jun 2017

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Well there wouldnt be much to play at the moment if we went for it right now. We're still setting up the basic mechanics and there are tons of underlying, very complex systems being laid in place. Right now combat isnt even in the game, but a basic version of it will be making its way in during next week. So yeah, not like we would get anything useful from people by doing it right now. But thats why we plan on releasing the alpha demo at the end of September (if its ready). It will be the vertical slice which people will play, which is exactly what youre saying :P

  2. #52

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Yeah, playtest early, playtest often, and in real life when you can. Read into some of the best practices to get the most out of it. When you're polishing the game it's too late because all that will teach you is what you could have done differently.

  3. #53

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    This thread is a year old, but I just read through it and have to say there are some really great suggestions for how DK1 could be improved. It seems with even just a few more changes the game could be at another level of fun.

    I've started a new thread here

    If you could summarize in bullet points some of the changes that would make the biggest difference, I've very interested and might be able to implement many of them in the future in KeeperFX.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    did lords of nether ever get anywhere in end? did we get the verticle slice?

  5. #55

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    We're not at 'the end' yet. They posted a news update a month ago, where they showed some designs and let us know that in spring 2020 they hope to have something ready for kickstarter.

  6. #56
    Mapmaker Skarok's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
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    Gamertag: Skarok

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    The title of this thread offends me on a spiritual level.
    There is absoluetly nothing wrong with DK Mobile, whatsoever.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    good good. But you do know converts are usually the most fanatical, so I hope that this is a first step into the right direction for you.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    i personally disagree with a lot of what was said in this. Yes, there is a lot of things in DK1 that were better, but you are foolish if you think there wasn't plenty in DK2 that was outright superior as well. As someone that has played both games, I love the charm of both of them. Just for some pointers, I will point out some of the stupid AF stuff in DK1.

    Boulders were braindead busted. You could ignore 95% of all combat but abusing these braindead traps. Ohh soooo skilled doing door/boulder 10x over. You are delusional if you thought there was skill in this. DK2 did this way better by not only giving a ton of different traps, they actually felt balanced for the most part and trap rooms weren't impossible to break. Traps were there to assist in combat in both offensive or defensive, you didn't just have a 1 trap wonder Ala Boulder.

    Useless creatures. You can say all you want you like the charm of a variety of creature types. Anyone will admit at the end of the day, there was only 5 creatures in DK1. Bile Demon, Mistress, Orc, Horned Reaper, Dragon, and Vampire depending on your view on him. Hero side it was just Samurai, Knight, Avatar for the most part. Everything else was utter garbage. So congratz, out of like 30 creatures, only like 8 are good. Meanwhile in DK2, almost every single creature was good. Sure Goblin/Fly/Troll were crap. I won't include Troll and Fly since they were exactly the same as DK1. That leaves Goblin vs Beetle/Spider as early units. Goblin while a meme, at least in a group weren't entirely useless, Beetles were already useless even in the tutorial, and Spiders are just slightly shinier shit, only saving grace they had was sacrificing. Meanwhile damn near every other creature and hero was not only usable, but actually good in DK2. Hell, only Heroes that were bad were Fairy and even that was a maybe, she was melee sure, but high level ones messed you up, and Thief, which still was a pain in groups due to invisbiility.

    For Horny I could understand, I personally liked the idea of him not being a mindless murderer and actually being a thinking being that wants to kill everything that moves. But nothing wrong with liking DK1 version.

    Humanized creatures I don't get either really wasn't. Beetle, Spider, Fly, Demonspawn, Bile Demon, Dragon and Ghost were only things that weren't human. Beetle and Spider were crap anyways, Fly still exist, Demonspawn is basically the Salamander, Bile Demon exist still, Dragon is gone, Ghost didn't matter anyways, so basically from where I am standing, DK2 lost 4 creatures, only 1 actually worthwhile, and got 5 or so in return which are all good. Seems worth to me.

    Tone I will say is up to personal preference, I feel this one is just you being biased to DK1 than an actual point. DK2 also wasn't all one color. There was just as much color in the units as their was in DK1. I will give ya on the darker tone. But even that is debatable since while I like a darker map, I also care more about actually being able to see the map. So I'd take the maps being lighter but seeable.

    Possession was a silly gimmick, that is all there is to it. Doesn't make a difference to me, you were never gonna make much use of it 99% of the time. Only thing I will say is the mention to taking damage from terrain, I personally like they removed that since it removed a lot of cheese that you could do in DK1, again, another positive to DK2 is you couldn't as easily cheese a ton of maps like you could in DK1. For Christ sake, the original campaign you could cheese about half the maps in DK1. Transfer creature while a nice gimmick, was busted as hell and I am glad it didn't return in DK2.

    Slower. I can't really fault for since in my eyes, they changed how combat worked from spammy like in DK1 to more strategic in DK2. Stun is a thing in DK2, and as your example with Mistresses, a few mistresses using their lightning at the right time can turn a close or losing fight into an outright slaughter. As for Imps they are slower yes, but I feel that is an offset for Reinforced Walls being diggable now. Which had to happen. Another failure of DK1 was you could turtle to win, or just not lose. DK2 you can't really turtle, sooner or later something IS GETTING IN.

    As for Imps again, I feel I prefer the leveling while working since you actually see imps progress that way, in DK1 you either kept lvl1s or leveled to 3 and that is it. You didn't care about past that. At least in DK2 if they live long enough, they will reach teleporting levels.

    You are outright wrong with Temple, it does 95% of what it did in DK1 in DK2. Scavenging doesn't exist anymore so that is mute. They both make creatures happier. They both cured Chicken. Disease doesn't exist anymore, it generates mana which I will get into later, and if anything, it has vastly more sacrifice options than in DK1. So I have no idea how you claim its worse when its outright superior to DK1 temple. Sure some of the sacrifices sucked, but some were great. Hell you could creature your own Heroes which usually was always worth.

    Sound can't say, they both had unique sounds, so to each their own.

    Spell diversity is a double edged sword, since a lot of spells made no sense. why would a Troll randomly shoot a fireball? Just because is why, which was stupid. Some like Speed up or Armor up were nice, but still exist in some extent in DK2, and I felt DK1 had TOO many creature spells. Also like I mentioned earlier, DK2 was meant to not be as spammy, so they made spells more impactful but less.

    I will stop it here since you have a lot more to it. I know at the very end you say DK2 isn't awful. But I think a lot of people give DK2 shit when it wasn't AS BAD as people make it out to be. DK1 had its fair share of crap as well but people like to turn a blind eye to it.

  9. #59

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    I don't think people turn a blind eye to DK1 perse, as it is a deeply flawed game still, but it's still fun despite it's flaws. DK2 is the sequel, so people have the bar higher, and for many people despite the many clear improvements and additions that DK2 brings it's a game that overall feels less fun and doesn't live up to it's full potential at all.

    What you say about possession for example, while all true, it is a clear difference between the games. They wanted possession to be a major part of the game and did not succeed. But in the end, DK1 became a game mostly about discovering new things. It has very little content and every new creature is a treat. Training them up and seeing what new skills they learn is a big part of the experience, and simply possessing a unit to walk around with it and get to know it well is very cool the first time. And there are many units to do this with, it's an experience that sticks. In DK2 this is lacking, there are far fewer units left, units don't learn any skills, and the units that are there are very similar to each other.
    The DK1 levels are then indeed very exploitable with a transferred unit which is a shame, but people have the option not to. And I think in the initial play through, the option to rush is not something figured out all that much and get the quite decent levels to play. DK2 comes with a set of levels many people don't enjoy much in either their first or consecutive playthrough.

    As for unit diversity, I don't think I can let it slide that you forgot the hell hound. But there are 30 units in DK1, of which it's very difficult to argue there are duplicates. DK2 also has exactly 30 units, but most of them are very similar to other units. The Warlock and Wizard in DK1 are two completely different units in how they function and how they look, in DK2 they are basically clones. The Archer and Elf are actually not just very similar to each other, but function the same as those two spellcasters. Then you have 6 knights and guards that are also the same.

  10. #60
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    On the sameness of units in DK2, it's important to note just how similar they are. There's a lot of similar stat usage for Health and Attack, the biggest distinguisher is attack speed. Melee units have no spells, so they're all extremely similar to each other. Spell castors have 3 spells, and gain abilities at levels 1, 4, and 8, and damage projectiles spells are 300, 450, and 600 respectively. So they're also extremely similar to each other. Differences between units are minuscule compared to how DK1 units differentiate from each other.

    I actually decided to go through all the units mid-post and, there is more variety in Attack values than I remember, but 400 is still an incredibly common stat used by a "variety" of different units, with 130 being another number shared by a few different units. Numbers, while being unique, don't vary too much, which is big seeing as this is all they have. Health though, is really similar, there are 9 different health values across all units, and this is including the Rogue's oddball 1650 Health. Common Health values are 1000, 1500, and 6000. Mistress is the only one with 2000 Health, Monk and Vampire share 2500 Health, Dark Angels and Guards have 3000 Health, (Black) Knights and Giants have 4000 Health, and the Royal Guard has 5000 Health. I did not count the Horned Reaper or Stone Knights when I made these comparisons.

    And again, this is all they have.

    Units tend to stand out for really silly reasons. The Warlock and Troll only matter because you need someone in the Library and Workshop for instance. Skeleton stands out because he's created in a unique way and leaves no body. Salamander is a complete idiot once he turns level 8. Rogues are whatever until they turn level 8, then invisibility can be exploited to win a map. Bile Demons have insane health while also being an iconic DK creature, and that's not a lot for DK2 to earn on its own. The Black Knight is an attractable Hero unit with too strong of stats for his own good, especially his threat value. Beyond that, the Mistress, Vampire, and Dark Angel are just about the only actual unique units, whereas everyone else is a reskinned Melee or Ranged unit.

    The Guard, Giant, Monk, and Fairy are the only non-character Heroes that aren't copies of an evil creature, or in some cases, copied by an evil creature. The Guard is a melee unit and a weaker Knight, who even if he lacks a creature counterpart, does have a Hero copy in the Royal Guard to beef him up. The Giant looks more intimidating than he is, in reality he is a weaker Knight, with +50 to his 400 Attack but a big drop in attack speed that makes him not worth it. Monks and Fairies are otherwise more unique.

    DK1 and DK2 might both have 30 units, if not counting DK2's HR, but if you were to remove miners and boss units, you get rid of the Imps, the DK1 Tunneller and DK2 Dwarf, Avatar / King Reginald / Stone Knights, DK1 Knight / Lord / Princes, and you end up with 26 DK1 units and 22 DK2 units. Of those 22 units, only a handful of them are actually that unique. They otherwise repeat the Melee and Ranged archetype.

    It seems like a moot point to argue that DK1 only utilizes a small quantity of its creatures due to power levels when DK2 only has a small quantity of creatures to use that are just copied and pasted across all of them.

    Both games are stupidly broken, trying to compare this is just a race to the bottom. DK2's better at hiding its brokenness on the surface though, it does have that, but it can also look much more halfassed too. Can't talk about balance and brokenness without mentioning how DK2 has a "mechanic" or glitch that causes units to deal 50% more damage when attacking from a relatively south position of another unit. That at minimum puts it on par with DK1's brokenness at times.

    There is one definite thing that DK1 has over DK2, and that's in its details. The best way to compare this is when you mine a rock in the water and it breaks apart. In DK1, you can hear the individual rocks hit the water, because each of those are actual objects that are physically hitting the water. DK2 has some generated effect of rocks breaking apart, but you don't hear anything hit the water, because nothing is really hitting the water. This makes DK2 feel comparatively fake and shallow, and these sort of things exist all over the game. Creatures moving in DK1 feel like they're physically having to move because you hear each step, but DK2 an Imp moving about is more about a background sound running while they're in moving state. This is what completely ties in the experience of playing DK1 and what pushes it to being a better game, whereas DK2 ends up being lackluster and cheap.
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