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Thread: Why DK1 is better than DK2

  
  1. #41

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Yeah it´s ok, but I meant people I know personally .

  2. #42
    Mapmaker impboy4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    While all the points about DK1 being a bar higher than DK2 are true; there are still a few things DK2 does right than DK1 simply cannot such as:

    - The ability to control the map size and the complexity (DK1 is always a fixed map size of 85x85 and complex maps cause the pathfinding bug).

    - A fifth keeper which can make some interesting 5 player maps.

    - An official map editor that is more computer speed friendly than DK1's official editor.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Quote Originally Posted by impboy4 View Post
    - An official map editor that is more computer speed friendly than DK1's official editor.
    It's no secret I much prefer DK1 over the second one, and would also argue that it is objectively the better game, there are several things DK2 does better over the first one. The workshop for example. The map editor is actually a completely moot point, even if you don't want to use Adikted, and can't handle the increased speed of the official editor, there are simple tools out there to help you reduce the speed.
    In fact, I think the map-making tools in DK1 allow you to quite easily make any possible map that the game can handle (and more). In DK2 a lot more is possible, and I believe the editors are a lot more frustrating to work with and limit the maps that are out there.

  4. #44
    Lords of Nether
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    I will agree that DK2 certainly streamlined and grew some things, and yet at the same time i also prefer 1, due to it's atmosphere, writing and overal direction. I do agree that one also had some... rather weird ideas. I always hated the scavanger room, the problem with creatures bumping each other into the temple pool led me to rarely build one, manufacturing was indeed very much a pain, but you know. Old game, first game of its kind. Still the best thing of the genre it created to date (minus perhaps evil genius but that was far more its own thing, which i also love). I think that the main problem is that most people who set out to do something in the Dungeon Management RTS genre set out to copy DK in some way (and usually fail because they misunderstand the core of the game) that they made the focus of their project. The somewhat cartoonish graphics of 2 are over exaggerated in things like Dungeons, and so far the twisted humour has been terribly misunderstood and turned into slapstick with some "dark" direction.. Impire, Dungeons etc. Focusing more on quirky, outright offputting or something other than the honestly unapologetically macabre humour of 1. Other times they simple seek to copy some surface level mechanics and rarely go about trying to expand anything. Look at Dungeons. It tried to go its own way but did so terribly. Second iteration brought it closer to DK but they were still trying to do something of their own. It wasnt amazing but it was one of the better things made in the genre for sure (Though saying that, theres not a lot to compete with so not a very high bar). And now we have Dungeons 3 which looks like a straight up ripoff from DK, right down to the fact they seem to have a Heart again, and a Hatchery that breeds turkeys instead of chickens... I dont really know what Kalypso is thinking.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Creatures bumping each other in the temple pool? I don't think I ever saw that happen, in the game I play creatures just walk right through each other. And although I prefer the 'dark humor' over the 'silly humor', I would play the latter if the mechanics would just work. Building the dungeon is already a huge part of the game, and if that isn't fun you're already a step behind. DK2 already suffers here with their fog of war and tiny building spaces, their uninteresting interface and slow imps. WftO takes it to the extreme with it being an absolute pain to control, and opendungeons to another extreme with there being absolutely no weight to any tile placed or cube destroyed.

    This is also why I'm worried about you guys when you talk 'direct creature control', I hear 'here we go again'.

    But like you said, a game doing it's own thing is also fine, I really liked Evil Genius. For WftO though it is inexcusable, they made a direct clone, an unofficial sequel that did not set out to do anything unique, but they even failed to copy the already flawed DK2. Now many patches and several expansions later they still have not fixed their interface.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    I like the first one mainly because of the atmosphere, and the speed of the gameplay.

  7. #47
    Lords of Nether
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    To be perfectly fair your control in our game, while direct is still heavily reliant on the autonomy of the creatures. While you can give more specific orders (such as if you want creatures to flank the enemy's support line or something) the majority of the time you will most likely just direct a general attack and your creatures should be the ones that decide, intelligently at that, how to handle the different forces they face. Its basically a system that allows the player to determine how much control they want to have, and that in emergencies, they could pull of certain high risk moves such a s suiciding an admitedly expensive unit to take out most of the enemy's support lines.

    Our dungeon building is a massive focus though, everything needs to make sense and to have weight, which is why we introduce tools for not only much more correct and efficient space management, but also adding a strategical layer to it with things like what we call "border walls". There are 3 types of those, one are arches which provide mostly stylistic but also slight spacial obstructions, one is the full wall which can only be destroyed by certain means like trolls etc, and the third is the barred which allows ranged attacks to go through, while keeping some modicum of protection (sortof like a barricade). Trust me, these arent concepts we just threw together in a day, Ive been thinking of how these things should work for years. Plus there will be plenty of time to tweak and perfect things based on playtesting feedback during development, starting soon. In fact im pretty sure i want you to be one of those earliest playtesters, if you are interested.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    That depends, if you want me to play the game from home and give feedback, sure, I'd be happy to.

    Proper playtesting is done however by putting a new player in a room with the pc and you observing. Most people can't give feedback, and the feedback they give is not directly useful. What you want to see is what they do wrong, when they sigh, at what point they stop playing (let them, don't force/encourage them to play through when they would have stopped if they played your game at home) and with what they struggle. And hopefully also when they are having fun and with what. For that I think it's best if you'd find people a bit closer to your location as that way you'd don't have to get into travel expenses and can easily ask them back a few iterations later.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    That would be something we do after KS i imagine, likely more in the polishing (final) phases, so yeah, with the early feedback stuff it would be from home

  10. #50

    Default Re: Why DK1 is better than DK2

    Why wait. Get a vertical slice as quickly as possible, and get somebody playing. If need be just your brother or your mother or whoever and see where they falter. This hardly takes any effort but it will help you determine where to focus your entire development process as it will teach you if what you think is the most fun bit is really the most fun bit of your game. Seeing where people have fun and where they don't have fun is priceless feedback.

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