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Thread: Alchemist

  
  1. #21
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    I'm quoting myself from another post here and don't want to bother with Quote but:

    "Alchemist with flamethrower? It runs on steam and mana so it is a magical flamethrower of the same ilk as the lightning or gas trap. It isn't a "modern" flamethrower and you should imagine it to be almost "steampunk" "
    Even then though, DK 2 is quasi-medieval and is FICTIONAL. If you look at things we had flamethrowers long before we had electricity. The lightning trap is thus way more advanced than a flamethrower. I draw attention to that point. Hell, we had steam power before we could generate Electricity.

    The Alchemist fits really quite well, he is the kind of figure that goes with the traps and that the traps can logically spring from. Now you might say that the Lightning trap is partly magical, but so is the flamethrower. Clear your mind of your modern interpretation.

    And yes, the Alchemist has a middle eastern feel, but that adds a "wise man from foreign lands who knows a lot of stuff you don't" feel to him. And I'm sorry for the history lecture in the other post, but the Middle East has influenced Europe psyche, and thus, its tales and folklore. You're the one who said this is just broad "Europe Medieval" stuff. And I agree with you that samurai doesn't fit. He is just a random appearance with no logical connection. But the Alchemist DOES appear in European lore and DOES appear as a wise man from Eastern Lands.
    Last edited by MeinCookie; December 24th, 2009 at 22:15.
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  2. #22
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    okay then. how about fully functional weaponry?

    guns, pistols?

    We have cannons > powder > firearms.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Point, and i wouldn't want that to come of it. But those things didn't develop til much later. Even in the Holy Land you didn't have people shooting each other with that stuff

    There are three logical progressions of powder
    -powder put in projectiles to make an explosion (bombs)
    -powder powering projectiles (rocket style)
    -powder setting of an explosion or such which propels projectiles (guns)

    Guns came somewhat later as they took the longest to refine. Now rockets don't belong in DK and guns definitely don't. Bearing in mind the Sentry Trap, forgot about that. But lets ignore that for now. These don't necessarily have to clash as they are from later periods (bottom two at least and possibly all three), they didn't come to Europe til much much later. But the Eastern wise man came through earlier. Before the crusades even, from the Byzantine Empire.

    Also it would be nigh impossible to give guns a fantasy/magical element. With a flamethrower it can be seen as "some fantastic contraption," whereas guns? Not a chance. It runs on forces not fully understood. Same as the Lightning Traps, gas traps and whatever else have you.
    Last edited by MeinCookie; December 24th, 2009 at 22:37.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    cannons and howitzers came to Europe around 13 century. Around the same time first primitive hand firearms appeared. Simple metal tubes with one soldered end. I remember me and my friend made such guns by our selves. we only needed a solid copper tube, filled it with self made powder (cement, sand, siter, sulfur, niter and coal) loaded a bolt or a thick nail and light up through a small hole on the end. Devastating. And we were like 13-15 years old. I'm not talking about rifles. I'm talking about smooth-bore long guns. They were primitive yet pretty powerful.

    Powder-powering projectile, or a firework, was also developed thousand years ago. The only problem was to learn to control its movement. We have magic, don't we? So we can control its movement with magic. How about magic bazookas?

    Why ignoring a centry trap? You want a detailed analysis, lets have it detailed. Evil cannon looks much like short-barreled cannons that were stationary on the gunships. Now if you read history, you'll find that first gunships that used this kind of cannons were 15-16 century one-deck frigates, having up to 22 weapons on board. Now, the Good cannon is an assault cannon with longer barrel, these middle-range cannons were used up to 19 century (eg Napoleon wars).

    "Also it would be nigh impossible to give guns a fantasy/magical element."

    Why? Argumentations, please. You are too "modernized", so to say. You cannot imagine your current world from a different perspective. You know that magic does not exist, and it becomes your glass ceiling. That's why it's easier for you to imagine medieval ages with magic than something that is closely associated for you with modern days, like guns. I don't suffer from this bias, and I can easily name you some ways how magic + firearms would work.

    "It runs on forces not fully understood. Same as the Lightning Traps, gas traps and whatever else have you. "

    I can tell you the same thing you told me. Open your mind. stop perceiving guns as a modern thing. Guns were long before that.

    A pistol with frost bullets? why not? =)
    Last edited by Hapuga; December 24th, 2009 at 23:04.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Great... Now I wanna make a Gunner suggestion...

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Now, let us stop this nonsense at this merry point.

    My goal was to show, how any idea, even the craziest one (having guns in DK? Duh...) can make it's way to life through argumentation and ignorance.

    Alchemist totally kills the uniqueness of Warlock, because Warlock is BAD. He posesses powerful magic, throws fireballs at his foes and scorches his rivals.

    And suddenly some idiot with a flamethrower appears and burns the badass warlock down in mere seconds.

    As the result, Warlock, as a unique spellcaster and researcher is destroyed and his character killed. We have many useless creatures in DK2, you know why? Because devs made this very mistake. They tried to create more variety, and never thought of the consequences. As the result - half of the creatures - garbage, dull, weak, useless pieces of texture and code.

    The best way to throw Warlock to a garbage can - create an alchemist.

    edit: an alchemist was a dude who pursued the goal of finding eternal life through discovering the "graal of life". This was thought to be achieved through manipulations with different elements, usually the four elements of earth: fire, earth, water and air. They also thought that in different proportions, you are able to shapeshift one element into another (interesting thing, but modern physics assume that this is actually possible through restructuring the atom lattice and playing with the atom itself).

    You can remember from DK2 movies - Warlock was experimenting with his powders and mixtures all the time. He also was turning innocent imps and unsuspecting minions into chickens. Note, he did it not through magic solely, like a wizard would (poof, you're a chicken), but with some extent of knowledge in chemistry. That's alchemist's work.

    DK Warlock = Alchemist.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    cannons and howitzers came to Europe around 13 century. Around the same time first primitive hand firearms appeared. Simple metal tubes with one soldered end. I remember me and my friend made such guns by our selves. we only needed a solid copper tube, filled it with self made powder (cement, sand, siter, sulfur, niter and coal) loaded a bolt or a thick nail and light up through a small hole on the end. Devastating. And we were like 13-15 years old. I'm not talking about rifles. I'm talking about smooth-bore long guns. They were primitive yet pretty powerful.

    Powder-powering projectile, or a firework, was also developed thousand years ago. The only problem was to learn to control its movement. We have magic, don't we? So we can control its movement with magic. How about magic bazookas?

    Why ignoring a centry trap? You want a detailed analysis, lets have it detailed. Evil cannon looks much like short-barreled cannons that were stationary on the gunships. Now if you read history, you'll find that first gunships that used this kind of cannons were 15-16 century one-deck frigates, having up to 22 weapons on board. Now, the Good cannon is an assault cannon with longer barrel, these middle-range cannons were used up to 19 century (eg Napoleon wars).

    "Also it would be nigh impossible to give guns a fantasy/magical element."

    Why? Argumentations, please.

    "It runs on forces not fully understood. Same as the Lightning Traps, gas traps and whatever else have you. "

    I can tell you the same thing you told me. Open your mind. stop perceiving guns as a modern thing. Guns were long before that.

    A pistol with frost bullets? why not? =)
    Yep, I am actually aware that early guns were little more than hollow tubes of metal stuffed with gunpowder and that. It sounds like you had a rather interesting childhood. They were very primitive and then evolved into two things. Cannons and "Hand Cannons." From there hand cannons branched into long arms and short arms; Pistols and Rifles, ect. ect. blah-blah. Judging you know this stuff if you spent (or perhaps misspent) a youth creating firearms.

    The thing I'm going ask now is what you were asking about flamethrowers only a few posts ago, "do we want guns in DK?" Do you want rogues running around totting hand cannons or flintlocks? Do you want to see knights blitzed by portable sentry guns with magical properties?

    Flamethrowers are complicated objects while guns (particularly early ones) are relatively simple. Flamethrower thus seem more magical and exotic, especially steam-punk style. Guns aren't as mystical and beyond belief and hellish as a flamethrower. They can't attract the same magical element.

    Now Sentry Traps take mana to fire which might suggest that they don't use powder. They fact that cannonballs come out looking like they are half-melted and lava-covered suggests heat is part of that process.

    If you want guns then that is fine, I'm just going to say one thing. Move slowly, look at each suggestion and how it fits the dungeon keeper aesthetic and judge it carefully.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    Yep, I am actually aware that early guns were little more than hollow tubes of metal stuffed with gunpowder and that. It sounds like you had a rather interesting childhood. They were very primitive and then evolved into two things. Cannons and "Hand Cannons." From there hand cannons branched into long arms and short arms; Pistols and Rifles, ect. ect. blah-blah. Judging you know this stuff if you spent (or perhaps misspent) a youth creating firearms.

    The thing I'm going ask now is what you were asking about flamethrowers only a few posts ago, "do we want guns in DK?" Do you want rogues running around totting hand cannons or flintlocks? Do you want to see knights blitzed by portable sentry guns with magical properties?

    Flamethrowers are complicated objects while guns (particularly early ones) are relatively simple. Flamethrower thus seem more magical and exotic, especially steam-punk style. Guns aren't as mystical and beyond belief and hellish as a flamethrower. They can't attract the same magical element.

    Now Sentry Traps take mana to fire which might suggest that they don't use powder. They fact that cannonballs come out looking like they are half-melted and lava-covered suggests heat is part of that process.

    If you want guns then that is fine, I'm just going to say one thing. Move slowly, look at each suggestion and how it fits the dungeon keeper aesthetic and judge it carefully.
    Yes, my adolescence was quite fun. Still glad I have all 10 fingers

    Okay, here's an interesting thing.

    a Spear. What is a spear? it's a long pole with sharpened end or a metal tip. What is mystical about the spear? Nothing.

    Look at Warcraft. Dwarven Snipers. They fit perfectly. No magic, no funny shit, load, shoot, reload.

    I mentioned this for 2 reasons. 1st, I want to show you again, that you are looking at guns as at a very modern weapon initially. 2nd, You can have guns in such game as DK. The only question is: should we?

    I don't want guns. I want a solid game with balanced chars. I make quite a few maps for DK2, and I rebalance them all so that each character would have a return, I'm tired of 10x10 combat pits and 4 dark angels rushing everything apart.

    And for your last sentence. Do you think I would hold a discussion with you at 1:45 AM where I am, fighting for every milimeter of ideas? thats how good, weighted ideas are born

    The worst ideas are those ideas everyone agrees on without analyzing them.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    Now, let us stop this nonsense at this merry point.

    My goal was to show, how any idea, even the craziest one (having guns in DK? Duh...) can make it's way to life through argumentation and ignorance.

    Alchemist totally kills the uniqueness of Warlock, because Warlock is BAD. He posesses powerful magic, throws fireballs at his foes and scorches his rivals.

    And suddenly some idiot with a flamethrower appears and burns the badass warlock down in mere seconds.
    Their game-play is very different. The Alchemist is a short range powerhouse. The Warlock has the advantage of range over alchemist who is weak against ranged units. I might lessen the Alchemists health all the same, but the situation you want to deploy an Alchemist is very different to that which you would want to deploy a wizard or warlock.

    Besides, what is stop to warlocks getting a boost? Increase their powers! I always thought they weren't good enough in DK 2 anyway. Not as much as bad-ass sorcerer you describe should have anyway.

    He is bad, no deputing it. He uses imps as test subjects, what kind of monster? The Alchemist isn't. He can be good or bad. He is powerful magically but that is not is focus. He focuses on inventions and how elements react and what-have-you. He uses magic to further his learning in this, but he doesn't seek magical knowledge.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: Alchemist

    So you have a vision of Alchemist-inventor more rather than alchemist-sorcerer?

    Am I correct?
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