Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst ... 8 9 10 11 12 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 119

Thread: Lords of Nether Development Progress

  
  1. #91

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    Careful now, he's a DK2 player. .

    And Hapuga, there's nothing wrong with humanoid (we've all agreed though that the DK2 roster is too boring, too human), but for me the fear is that with too many humanoids eventually the roster still gets a bit samey, as you'd have all the units on a fixed blueprint: 2 legs, 2 arms and most likely 1 head. Now you get a bit of variation with the size, color, posture and amount of hair and horns. Add the occasional tail and you're done. If you have a good amount of units types, they start to look more or less the same. Especially since you've also got the converted heroes mixed in.
    With a Dungeon-sim this is a bit more of a problem than with other games because you want an overview of your dungeon so you need to be zoomed out a lot, but you still want your units to have individual personalities. In short, you've got bipeds from a distance.
    If you drop the humanoid restriction for a significant portion of the roster it's suddenly much easier to have visually distinct units even when you're zoomed out and a lot is going on.

  2. #92
    Lords of Nether
    Lead Game Designer
    DBlac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    184

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    I honestly think this argument largely falls apart when you -really- think about how useful and present non-humanoids were in DK. Like, even if they didnt stop appearing in later levels, who wouldnt throw away beetles and flies? Tentacles appeared in maybe 2-3 levels in the entire game and were boring and mostly useless. Dragons, Hellhounds, Ghosts and Bile demons were pretty much the only useful things and even hellhounds and ghosts are debatable and their presence in the dungeon is questionable. So... non-human roster boils down to 2, with a whole bunch of creatures youd never use if the others were available.

    Argument regardless, you can have a loooot of difference and diversity in humanoids/biped. Just because DK2 had these limitations and needed the same rig, and ended up making boring human creatures doesnt mean we will.

  3. #93

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    I wasn't arguing with you anymore, but answering Hapuga. Don't worry, I'll patiently wait and see what you'll come up with. I do have to say though that you're the first person I know to ever call the ghost useful.
    But I'll play along,....

    First of all, one thing I dislike about DK1 is exactly the fact that the way the portal works you've got to throw away weak creatures and end up with less diversity. I hope that in your game you do find a way to both have a massive difference in the strongest and weakest unit available and simultaneously not have the weaker units be useless or detrimental.

    But what DK1 is really, really good at is having the units be visually distinct, even in the original resolution. (The first 2 times I played the game was in the 320x240 resolution!). And although in your dream-army there aren't that many units worthwhile, you do use all units throughout the campaign, and in the middle maps all or most of those units on the same map. Many players starting out do not even know they can throw away their useless units by the way, but I personally also keep my insects until I've got my temple researched. Demon Spawn and Spiders play a big role in the first few maps. Hell, I made a few maps myself and on those I made sure all units are useful.

    But I think you look at it from the wrong side,... it's not how many non-humanoids do you have, it's about how many humanoids can you have before they start to look too much alike from a distance. DK1 was manageable. This quite frankly looks horrible.

  4. #94

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    I would say in my opinion that the more intelligent humanoids are more fitting for what you are going for with the whole lords system. While as a Dungeon Keeper you were more of an evil "force" and it made more sense for you to have evil animalistic non humanoid beasts. I like what you are going for as it sounds like it has strong DK1 style roots while sticking with somewhat more sophisticated creatures that gives you more free reign on giving them a personality. While having an occassional beast acting on instinct is cool in the end it is more limited. Unless you have an intelligent but non humanoid creature like Beholder or Dragon.

  5. #95
    Lords of Nether
    Lead Game Designer
    DBlac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    184

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    I mean an argument like a presented point, i know were not arguing :P

    Well thats what i said earlier, we want to make each creature have a use and a reason to be used, but naturally people are going to limit themselves to strategies they want. Dont think about it like DK and "whats useful", think about it like an rts like starcraft or soemthing based on "what is the strategy im going for".

    I do get your point, and i try to keep my designs visually distinct enough for it to not be a problem. Time will tell if it works, but if a design doesnt work and is not distinct enough then i will simply go back and remake it. Humanoids can come in many different shapes and sizes and its far from difficult to make a cast of 16 look entirely different.

    Also the WftO thing is problematic on different levels, its not just the creature designs being humanoid. Everything is a puzzle and in this case the environment calls too much attention, the health flowers are always in your face and distracting and there are so many effects and glowing things that you cant tell what happens, along with the creatures being too small.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishko View Post
    I would say in my opinion that the more intelligent humanoids are more fitting for what you are going for with the whole lords system. While as a Dungeon Keeper you were more of an evil "force" and it made more sense for you to have evil animalistic non humanoid beasts. I like what you are going for as it sounds like it has strong DK1 style roots while sticking with somewhat more sophisticated creatures that gives you more free reign on giving them a personality. While having an occassional beast acting on instinct is cool in the end it is more limited. Unless you have an intelligent but non humanoid creature like Beholder or Dragon.
    My thoughts exactly, it is much harder to characterize a beast, and since we have Champions which are essentially story characters then that doesnt work. Beasts -will- be amking it into the game and by the looks of things they will be tamable, the team has agreed that it would work nicely, but youd go about that whole thing differently than you would acquire creatures. Well, it would actually be more akin to converting characters, but much simpler and without any capability of direct control.

    There is indeed something to be said however of non-humanoids that are intelligent, but that will also come in time.
    Last edited by DBlac; November 10th, 2017 at 23:10.

  6. #96

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    If you can also convert heroes, than it's not just the 16 units you'll have. This is the trick to always remember:
    Name:  small.png
Views: 50
Size:  6.1 KB

    And yes, I'd like my non-bipeds intelligent.


    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/fc...08465e83ff.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b8/05/a9/b...4a7ee2861c.jpg
    https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets...jpg?1444773291

    I did hear you, that you want to keep all units useful - by which I simply understand that is has a purpose for which you might want to use it. Unlike for example the DK1 beetle you just sacrifice or throw away if you can have any other creature.
    I also know that for a dungeon sim it could by quite difficult to get right, as you must really have units that are clearly more desirable to show up to better dungeons, but at the same time you don't want the simpler creatures to be fodder as soon as you get there. It's nice to have a strategic component in getting your unit composition, but at the same time it should not be a decision which creatures to get, it should be something to strive for and feel like a reward when getting there. So: "Yes, I managed to get a black knight, nice!", not "I get 3 mages first, then after that I make 8 dead knights and top it of with 3 support units."

  7. #97

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by DBlac View Post
    I honestly think this argument largely falls apart when you -really- think about how useful and present non-humanoids were in DK. Like, even if they didnt stop appearing in later levels, who wouldnt throw away beetles and flies? Tentacles appeared in maybe 2-3 levels in the entire game and were boring and mostly useless. Dragons, Hellhounds, Ghosts and Bile demons were pretty much the only useful things and even hellhounds and ghosts are debatable and their presence in the dungeon is questionable. So... non-human roster boils down to 2, with a whole bunch of creatures youd never use if the others were available.

    Argument regardless, you can have a loooot of difference and diversity in humanoids/biped. Just because DK2 had these limitations and needed the same rig, and ended up making boring human creatures doesnt mean we will.

    Now this is true. Nobody complains about the humanoid Horned Reaper because it was badass. I was even a fan of the trolls, or anything with a distinct personality and look.

    But i'll hold out on my hope for my spider army for the future DLC

    Do you have a Kickstarter going?

  8. #98
    Lords of Nether
    Lead Game Designer
    DBlac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    184

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    If you can also convert heroes, than it's not just the 16 units you'll have. This is the trick to always remember:


    I did hear you, that you want to keep all units useful - by which I simply understand that is has a purpose for which you might want to use it. Unlike for example the DK1 beetle you just sacrifice or throw away if you can have any other creature.
    I also know that for a dungeon sim it could by quite difficult to get right, as you must really have units that are clearly more desirable to show up to better dungeons, but at the same time you don't want the simpler creatures to be fodder as soon as you get there. It's nice to have a strategic component in getting your unit composition, but at the same time it should not be a decision which creatures to get, it should be something to strive for and feel like a reward when getting there. So: "Yes, I managed to get a black knight, nice!", not "I get 3 mages first, then after that I make 8 dead knights and top it of with 3 support units."
    Well, we also intend to have heroes quite distinct in their archetypes but yes, the potential is there. Like i said, i try to keep everything distinct and it needs more i can always redesign it. No worries there.

    As for creatures, you summon creatures manually, altho ofcourse there will be requirements but you determine what and when it enters your dungeon, so you can absolutely build different armies for different scenarios and there will be tradeoffs such as higher demands, higher costs etc. You can build a goblin army even though you could technically have access to Black Knights. But you will prolly have a hard time raising an army of over 3-4 Black Knights in the time it will take an enemy to reach the population limit with goblins and likely rush you. But again, theres tradeoffs. Goblins will suck pretty hard against a black knight because Black Knights have Plate armor which ups their resistances to slashing damage, which is what Goblins do. If you however have around 10 Trolls which do blunt, which is very heavy against plate, you will take down what is essentally more powerful units on nearly the same level. naturally 10 trolls will lose against 10 black knights on equal footing, but you can get trolls faster than you can get knights. And again, armor and resistances play a role here in the rock paper scissors thing, as well as individual creature abilities. So theres just a WHOOOOOLE bunch of reasons you will need different creatures in different situations no matter how far you are in the game. Everything is essentially a tool that allows you to adapt and nothing is useless.

    As for the "Eldritch abomination" thing in your image, those types of things are actually *whispers* planned for an expansion, shhhhhhh. And the rest of hte beasty images, those are typically the sort of things you will find as neutral enemies. We will allow you to tame some of them though, so rejoice :P



    Quote Originally Posted by damedog View Post
    Now this is true. Nobody complains about the humanoid Horned Reaper because it was badass. I was even a fan of the trolls, or anything with a distinct personality and look.

    But i'll hold out on my hope for my spider army for the future DLC

    Do you have a Kickstarter going?
    Yeah, i personally dont think its exactly about being humanoid or not, its about how distinct and unique looking they are. Youre gonnah ave a hard time mistaking one of our trolls for anything remotely human. As for a spoodler army, we will most likely let you tame beasts in the main game, weve talked about it and were agreed that its quite cool and serves an interesting and unique niche purpose. So rejoice for spider army :P or atleast spider guard dogs if we dont do the beastmaster bond thing.

    We do not yet but that is coming next year! You can always follow us on social media, like our facebook https://www.facebook.com/Netherlords...6b07Kw&fref=nf

    We update those a bit more often and we will announce the Kickstarter very publically We will announce it here as well though, i just know that its hard to miss things here.

  9. #99
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I also know that for a dungeon sim it could by quite difficult to get right, as you must really have units that are clearly more desirable to show up to better dungeons, but at the same time you don't want the simpler creatures to be fodder as soon as you get there. It's nice to have a strategic component in getting your unit composition, but at the same time it should not be a decision which creatures to get, it should be something to strive for and feel like a reward when getting there. So: "Yes, I managed to get a black knight, nice!", not "I get 3 mages first, then after that I make 8 dead knights and top it of with 3 support units."
    It's actually not difficult at all and should be relatively easy, especially for DBlac, although that of course depends on the specifics of LoN's fundamental design. I achieved a similar enough balance in a game as broken and limited as DK2. For example, Goblins remained useful in the late game because they are distinctly the fastest units in the game and with levels, they had decent burst and a stun spell, so they could harass effectively and also support in larger battles.

    As for a feeling of being rewarded, well having interesting high level spells and a general high end power level is one way to accommodate as a reward for training a creature that far, especially if there's more limits on training compared to either vanilla DK1 / DK2. Creatures have to be continuously fed combat while surviving. There could also be units who have better high end potential but take more devotion to reach that point, like what I did with the Vampire as he starts weak but gets a 33% increase in level bonuses because of how Drain works.

    Plus there is something special about leveling the same weak unit into something strong over the course of an entire level, compared to just replacing them for something stronger like the Horned Reaper in DK1. Granted, there is a separate feeling for becoming strong enough to summon a legendary species as well, but I'm mainly saying that there's advantage to both based on preference. Although, not much reason to not also include both.

    These solutions are admittedly pretty simple, although I do suppose they're also a bit cleaner because of it. I'm curious what exactly DBlac has in store for this.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  10. #100
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Austin, USA
    Posts
    1,444

    Default Re: Lords of Nether Development Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Careful now, he's a DK2 player. .

    And Hapuga, there's nothing wrong with humanoid (we've all agreed though that the DK2 roster is too boring, too human), but for me the fear is that with too many humanoids eventually the roster still gets a bit samey, as you'd have all the units on a fixed blueprint: 2 legs, 2 arms and most likely 1 head. Now you get a bit of variation with the size, color, posture and amount of hair and horns. Add the occasional tail and you're done. If you have a good amount of units types, they start to look more or less the same. Especially since you've also got the converted heroes mixed in.
    With a Dungeon-sim this is a bit more of a problem than with other games because you want an overview of your dungeon so you need to be zoomed out a lot, but you still want your units to have individual personalities. In short, you've got bipeds from a distance.
    If you drop the humanoid restriction for a significant portion of the roster it's suddenly much easier to have visually distinct units even when you're zoomed out and a lot is going on.
    Weak argument, sorry. According to this argument, 95% units of 95% games would feel "samey" because most units are humanoid, which is wildly not true. You are overly biased due to a bad roster of DK2, but who said that DK2 should be taken as an example? Even with a bad and repetitive roster of DK2, I never ever had difficulty figuring out who is who in my DK2 games.

    I would argue the opposite point: a dungeon full of weird and totally different creatures will not feel like a united, contiguous source of evil power, but more like a random riff-raff and motley horde of some other-wordly zoo escapees. It should be a balance of both worlds.

    Additionally, the "Us versus Them" feeling of being bad is amplified by counter-examples of what is considered "evil" in folklore. Warlocks against Wizards, Vampires against Monks, Dark knight versus (Light) Knight. The entire idea was strongly based on the antagonists that represent the "evil" part of otherwise neutral roster. Having all-weird, all-monster creature roster will immediately lose the feel of relatability and will basically look like a "some weird creepy bugs and spirits defend their dwellings from raiding parties of people" game. The "good to be bad" part will be lost. None of the weird creeps will be relatable, none of them will be a relatable counterpart of some "good" character, and as a result - less motivation to hate the "goodies" because now its just a bunch of humanoids attacked by monsters.
    Last edited by Hapuga; November 11th, 2017 at 21:32.
    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6659/c2warlocki.gif

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 34
    Last Post: June 14th, 2020, 21:32
  2. Lords of Nether - Artistic Direction
    By Blutonium in forum Lords of Nether
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: June 18th, 2017, 23:38
  3. Replies: 20
    Last Post: June 17th, 2017, 10:49
  4. October 15th – Development progress
    By Mentor in forum War for the Overworld
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: October 17th, 2011, 05:58

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •