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Thread: Couple of questions

  
  1. #1

    Default Couple of questions

    Is there a random map generator available for DK1? And is there a map/campaign pack I can download somewhere from this site ir do I have to browse each thread? I played through almost all of Lubie's collected single scenarios (not the campaigns).

  2. #2

    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Wow. I never even considered somebody wanting that, there are so many maps and how good can a random map really be. And how would they play out differently from each other,... but no as far as I know there aren't any map generators.

    Since you've most maps, do you have some recommendations? What kind of maps do you like, which ones do you think are good?

    I guess with the KeeperFX 'DRAWFROM' script-command it is possible to make one or more maps that plays out differently each and every time, functioning sort of like a random map generator, but of course the layout would stay the same.

  3. #3
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    how good can a random map really be.
    Really, really fucking good. DK1 has trivial map complexity, it would not be very difficult to write a decent generator.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Couple of questions

    I disagree, DK1 actually has very high map complexity compared to other RTL or SIM games. In fact, with the basic mechanics of DK each game would play out practically identical if the map allows it,... at exactly the same time attract the same creatures, build the same rooms in the same order at the same sizes, in mostly the same layout -> mine enough gold to keep them training until you are strong enough to take out your rivals. In the process capture an convert enemies you encounter.

    It is the level that actually makes the game, the script at least as much as the level layout. You need creativity there for it to actually play out better than using a multiplayer-map for skirmish mode. It's no surprise that the majority of user made maps out there are considered bad to very-bad by most people.
    That said, I can perfectly imagine a good level editor(I've designed algorithms for a living), but I also think doing it properly will take more effort than in (re)making dungeon keeper in the first place.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Well I'm sure you're aware of Lubie's website, it's abandoned however since its last update was from November 2015.

    We used to mail back and forth but I think he found another project or "life" stuff since he doesn't reply anymore.

    No offense, but I thought there would be more maps on this forum I'm a member of the old (?) KeeperKlan forum (like 12 years ago). But this is my second post here

    http://keeper.lubiki.pl/

  6. #6
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I disagree, DK1 actually has very high map complexity compared to other RTL or SIM games. In fact, with the basic mechanics of DK each game would play out practically identical if the map allows it,... at exactly the same time attract the same creatures, build the same rooms in the same order at the same sizes, in mostly the same layout -> mine enough gold to keep them training until you are strong enough to take out your rivals. In the process capture an convert enemies you encounter.

    It is the level that actually makes the game, the script at least as much as the level layout. You need creativity there for it to actually play out better than using a multiplayer-map for skirmish mode. It's no surprise that the majority of user made maps out there are considered bad to very-bad by most people.
    That said, I can perfectly imagine a good level editor(I've designed algorithms for a living), but I also think doing it properly will take more effort than in (re)making dungeon keeper in the first place.
    DK1 maps have trivial compexity. They are literally square maps that may or may not be populated by instances like rooms or creatures. Writing program for that is trivial.

    The so called "creativity" is nothing more than a successful pattern that works. Patterns can be trained, this is what we have neural networks for. Feed it successful levels, apply corrections for specific scenarios like non-passing areas, critical areas of influence etc etc. Add a bit of randomization. TADA. This is precisely how HOMM3 randomizer works. And it makes excellent maps. And it is much more complex than a DK1 map. I am telling you this as a software engineer.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Klinsk View Post
    Well I'm sure you're aware of Lubie's website, it's abandoned however since its last update was from November 2015.

    We used to mail back and forth but I think he found another project or "life" stuff since he doesn't reply anymore.
    No offense, but I thought there would be more maps on this forum I'm a member of the old (?) KeeperKlan forum (like 12 years ago). But this is my second post here

    http://keeper.lubiki.pl/
    Yeah, no, Mefisto got a good job and kids and what not, so KeeperFX and Lubiki are not being updated anymore. There are I believe 2 or 3 campaigns on this forum and the 6 or 7 maps I made and the rest is also on lubiki.pl. Last few years there aren't many map-makers active.
    So, no recommendations on what maps you like from the many listed on lubiki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    DK1 maps have trivial compexity. They are literally square maps that may or may not be populated by instances like rooms or creatures. Writing program for that is trivial.

    The so called "creativity" is nothing more than a successful pattern that works. Patterns can be trained, this is what we have neural networks for. Feed it successful levels, apply corrections for specific scenarios like non-passing areas, critical areas of influence etc etc. Add a bit of randomization. TADA. This is precisely how HOMM3 randomizer works. And it makes excellent maps. And it is much more complex than a DK1 map. I am telling you this as a software engineer.
    Well thank you very much mr. software engineer. Almost everything can be handled by successful algorithms, I've made a few myself affecting several hundreds of millions of people each. HOMM3 maps are much, much simpler than (good!) DK1 maps as they are literally just areas with the instances in specific patterns, some near the starting locations other more distant. HOMM3 is a very functional game where the mechanics are sound and the maps are just varieties where those mechanics come into play.
    DK1 is the other way around, where the mechanics are basic and flawed and the maps themselves are what provides the gameplay variety. Here the script is more important than the instances and the objects in determining the quality of the level.
    And yes, it is perfectly possible to create algorithms to create proper maps, but there aren't even enough successful maps to feed your neural networks. Algorithms and AI sophisticated enough can do anything and more humans can, including creative stuff, but that doesn't make it trivial.

    Making basic multiplayer/skirmish maps in DK, yeah, that's very simple and requires a mere handful of rules. When talking about actually good and interesting single player scenarios that would require quite a bit more effort and would be preceded by actually making some good maps. At this point it really is easier to improve the mechanics of the game than it is to make a map generator.

  8. #8
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Yeah, no, Mefisto got a good job and kids and what not, so KeeperFX and Lubiki are not being updated anymore. There are I believe 2 or 3 campaigns on this forum and the 6 or 7 maps I made and the rest is also on lubiki.pl. Last few years there aren't many map-makers active.
    So, no recommendations on what maps you like from the many listed on lubiki?



    Well thank you very much mr. software engineer. Almost everything can be handled by successful algorithms, I've made a few myself affecting several hundreds of millions of people each. HOMM3 maps are much, much simpler than (good!) DK1 maps as they are literally just areas with the instances in specific patterns, some near the starting locations other more distant. HOMM3 is a very functional game where the mechanics are sound and the maps are just varieties where those mechanics come into play.
    DK1 is the other way around, where the mechanics are basic and flawed and the maps themselves are what provides the gameplay variety. Here the script is more important than the instances and the objects in determining the quality of the level.
    And yes, it is perfectly possible to create algorithms to create proper maps, but there aren't even enough successful maps to feed your neural networks. Algorithms and AI sophisticated enough can do anything and more humans can, including creative stuff, but that doesn't make it trivial.

    Making basic multiplayer/skirmish maps in DK, yeah, that's very simple and requires a mere handful of rules. When talking about actually good and interesting single player scenarios that would require quite a bit more effort and would be preceded by actually making some good maps. At this point it really is easier to improve the mechanics of the game than it is to make a map generator.
    Haha, did I injure your ego with my profession? You started the "im the algorithm guy here" game, I simply played along.

    DK rules all boil down to simple events that could be deconstructed atomically. The "funness" of a map does not strictly depend on map complexity. I enjoy some of the simpler maps as much as I enjoy some of the more complex one, simply because of the layout. This makes the initial assumption "generated maps are not fun" wrong for 2 reasons: 1. simple maps are achievable as I mentioned. 2. you have no tried it - cannot affirm something without measuring it.

    But hey, we have an algorithm guy on the forum that writes algorithms that affect millions of people. That's a relief! Surely it will not be a challenge for such person to throw together a framework in C# in a couple of evenings, would it? I mean, what do I know, I'm just a stupid graphics engineer
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Couple of questions

    Fair enough

    But those simple maps you enjoy, how different are they really from each other? When you play the '-1player' maps and enjoy them, that's just fine. They have no script and are dependent just on the core mechanics of DK1. If you generate maps of that simplicity, does that really add something beyond the 30 skirmish maps already included? And the hundreds of user made maps already out there?

    My initial assumption(statement really) was not 'generated maps are not fun', but 'basic generated maps add nothing of value to what is already available'.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Couple of questions

    They do not have to as basic as a vanilla MP map that has just that - a terrain. It is still not hard to have scripted basic time events: invasions, patrols, hidden parties, boosts etc.

    The goal was never to make, like, "amazing" maps. The goal was to have good enough maps that are at least a bit different where you are not replaying the same 20-30 map rotation over and over.

    Aesthetically pleasing
    Functional
    At least somewhat balanced

    This is achievable with a rudimentary generator that doesnt even need AI.

    That's it. This is enough to produce a map that has at least some fun to it. Also, never forget that nothing stops you from editing the generated map. If you find the layout to be nice, and see an interesting landmark - go edit it by hand, make it better.
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