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Thread: DK1: Changes to to make it even more fun

  
  1. #1

    Default DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    I just finished reading this thread on why DK1 is so good, and there were many great ideas of how to make it even better.

    Recently I've taken an interest in putting a significant amount of time into KeeperFX development. It's going to be a challenge to get a handle on things, but I don't see any reason why I would desert the task. So I'm interested in considering what improvements could go the farthest in improving the fun.

    If in a comment you can make a short list of what you think would be the smallest changes that would go a long way to improving the game, I want to collect a list and prioritize based on the most bang for my buck in effort. I am also interested in making potentially big changes too if they're worthwhile.

    I'm most interested in how difficult it would be to add creatures or perhaps even room types.

    Here's a collection so far of ideas I have brainstormed, and some I've read on here, in no particular order. Some of them are just tiny silly ideas, some I think would be amazing and fun, at least as options in map-making settings for better maps.

    1. Warlocks and Wizards can unlock any door including magic doors, or can re-lock it so that the other keepers creatures cannot pass through it (it becomes yours perhaps). They can also disarm traps and redirect boulders with a wave of the hand or staff. And they laugh every time they do since this amuses them so.
    2. Option to disable wall fortifications on the map, or only during certain times/places.
    3. Wall re-building possibility (see bile demons for one option).
    4. Bile demons past level 10 or something, if you don't keep them working or let them eat too much, they become level 11 and when they try to walk through a door or maybe hallway they get stuck and block it. The only way to free them is to dig them free. Until then no one can pass, and if they die or are killed there their corpse never decomposes enough to be able to pass through or over, or at least it takes a very long time to decompose. Good way to block places more permanently than doors. The one way to "re-build" a wall or barrier
    5. Bile demons try to sit in the temple pool and it ruins the temple (they splashed all the water out).
    6. Imps cannot carry bile demon bodies, or must team-up to carry them.
    7. A potions/magic room connected to the library wherein magic creatures (especially Wizards and Warlocks) can do special things. Make potions your imps can carry to splash on other creatures, and they become invisible while caring them after a warlock has cast the spell on them and the potion they carry in the magic room. Maybe this is how portals are connected by converted efforts in this room.
    8. Spell (perhaps cast with difficulty by a group of Wizards in your potions/magic room) to connect all portals temporarily and the underground glows (red or the keeper's color?) and if you drop your creatures in then, they'll come out another portal (maybe cast invisible on them). Also during this time they might get lost down there and not show up for awhile. It would be cool if you could do that in first person.
    9. Dark mistress cannot train, but can only level up by being tortured. Like Lord Vader, their increased pain and anger strengthens their power. Loving pain, they like to walk in lava and try to drown themselves in the temple.
    10. You can only have one vampire at a time, maybe only because if you have two they will immediately fight each other to the death, which you cannot interfere with (can't pick them up while they're fighting. Maybe you can never interrupt (pick up) a vampire while he is fighting (and that's kind of okay because he will resurrect if he dies).
    11. Ghosts can always pass through any door except magic doors (or magic doors hurt them to pass through)?
    12. Ability to tune the effectiveness and difficulty in capturing/torturing/turning enemy creatures, on a per-map basis. This might be done in several ways, for example Tentacles love to volunteer to be the torturers. Maybe this is the only way you can torture: your creatures must do it. Some creatures are more effective against certain other creatures.
    13. Change this if it's true: AI won't create more imps if his are still alive but captured? I wasn't even aware of this by the way. What a noob I am.
    14. Imps for graveyard carcasses shouldn't be allowed? As in imps disappear when they die and no corpse? If they are tortured they never defect.
    15. Imp sacrifice doesn't reduce imp spell cost. Maybe increases the level of all other living imps? Or you can only have so many imps before having to sacrifice creatures for them?
    16. AI improvements: this one is hard but would go a long way in every improvement. Looking for your best ideas. Biggest bang for buck could be crucial here.
    17. Flies lay eggs and larva grow and hatch on carcasses (which do not decompose otherwise unless this happens or hell hound pisses on them).
    18. Possible other creatures: Bat, Vader
    19. Vampires (and maybe all undead) run away from Monks and priestesses?
    20. Spiders can jump forward or backward quickly like a jumping spider.
    21. A certain amount of creatures must be guarding the prison or the prisoners can escape on their own. More creatures in prison increase chance of escape. Creatures with certain spells like Invisibility or something can sneak out of prison.
    22. Certain creatures will try to kill themselves in the prison rather than stay captured. Some will never defect by torture. Some will defect if they see a dark mistress walk by, or if you give them enough gold or if they have line of sight to a full treasure room.
    23. Keeper Freeze spell?
    24. Have disease be more effective. Creatures wander blindly. Diseased creatures cannot be healed in the temple. They just have a chance of surviving or not.
    25. Dungeon heart gets weaker with time? Shrinks when you use magic? Can go into A-fib and if you have creatures with lightning they will try to zap you back into consciousness.
    26. Dragons can fly anywhere that isn't in a confined space. They constantly sneak your gold and only give it up if tortured.
    27. Bat creature that only eats insects and will die without doing so. Can hear far away creatures, seeks them out, and give them diseases. Perhaps training to level 10 can become a vampire.
    28. Spiders can create webs as traps.
    29. Imps get frustrated if they mine gems for too long (since they never see physical progress!) and begin to dig elsewhere on their own for the satisfaction until you notice. They might even choose to dig through your fortified walls.
    Last edited by spartahawk; January 21st, 2018 at 20:42.

  2. #2
    Demon Spawn Endrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    I think some are impossible or difficult to implement. I do not understand why these innovations should provide more fun? I think it would be better to install some new creatures.

  3. #3

    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    Here's the thing, for me there's a big difference in 'what would have made DK1 even better', 'what would you like to see in DK3' and 'what can be done to improve DK1'. And I use DK1 and KeeperFX interchangeably here.

    Although I did not agree with every decision he made, I really did like the direction Mefistotelis went in developing KeeperFX, in that he sought to remake the game, fixed the obvious bugs and mostly made improvements that left the regular game intact. Most people playing FX do so because they want to play DK1 as they remember or that they want to play the game to see how it was. And I'm disappointed there has never been a sequel, but there we are.
    For me the key improvements he made were in order: 1) The ability to play the game on modern machines, 2) The ability to include fan-maps and campaigns while leaving the original campaign intact and 3) the improved screen resolution. That's done.

    What's next in my book are the further improvement of KeeperAI for skirmish maps against computer player, more possibilities and options for user maps/campaigns and possibly improved multiplayer.

    Changes in other directions, for example the number 1 on your list in allowing warlocks to be able to open doors will immediately break lots of the current content. Changes like for example forcing a mistress to only train through torture will immediately make half the players rebel, so make 3 changes like that and you've got just 12% of players left. I'm afraid those kind of things are only possible on a spiritual successor. WftO is already out there but perhaps they'll make a new game, so these suggestions are best provided to them, the boys from Lords of the Nether, OpenKeeper or OpenDungeons.

    What would give some additional freedom would be to make a split on the main menu. Have 'Dungeon Keeper' maps in one list, and 'KeeperFX' maps on another that are designed around and/or feature the changes that are made. I'd love to see flies burst out of corpses for example, but it has no place in the maps already out there.




    Now, I would have liked it if they did some stuff in DK1 different from what we end up with. The people still on this forum are exceptions, but for most people DK1 quickly becomes too samey. There are many people out there with fond memories of the game, but play the campaign and you've seen everything. Playing skirmish maps in the original game was even hidden by default because it was completely useless with how poor enemies performed (especially before the AI improvements that came with the patch/DD), and dungeon building is the same on each and every map.
    People who recognise DK is not a RTS call it a 'dungeon sim', and that is the appeal. Making and designing your dungeons, be amazed what kind of creatures you attract and how alive they are and how cool they respond to everything, then train them to see what cool new powers they get to kill heroes with. You even get to convert those heroes and see how powerful they can become. But if you do it once, it is the same the next time because you can get the same creatures each time and can build the same dungeon each time.

    So for me they could have focussed more on having the skirmish levels be fun. I think the creature attractions, should have been a lot different in that you have to truly design a good dungeon to get the powerful creatures. And the AI should have received more work, to properly train his creatures and also attract good creatures and be able to convert enemy units to rival a player. All the spells and traps in the game are rubbish and should have been designed with counterplay in mind. And there should have been a gameplay mechanic around capturing enemy units that goes way beyond 'flip a switch and all enemies end up in your prison'.




    Now where to actually improve KeeperFX? What unfortunately seems beyond reach is to end the current limitations like how many if-statements you can use in a script and how many creatures can be on a map. Mefisto also wanted to change these things but has said they can only be changed after the rewrite of the original code is complete. What also seems impossible is to add new stuff into the game since nobody has stood up with the both the skill and the will(it is a lot of work!) to make new sprites.

    What can be done is improving the KeeperAI. In recent builds it has already improved a lot over how it was a while back. The main things still holding him back is not converting enemy units, and to a lesser extent not building treasure rooms near gems/gold giving him a money deficit. The final thing is that he accepts all units he gets and will end up fighting your bile demons with his beetles. On skirmish maps he should also use the dungeon-specials he finds.
    A menu for skirmish maps could be nice as well, giving the players choices in how to play the level. For example with custom rules like 'breakable walls' or advantages for the computer player like double money, faster portal speed or increased portal limit.

    Mapmakers can also get lot more options, and it should be a lot easier for them to make good maps. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that some per-map balance on the powerful room will make it much easier to make a basic but fun DK1 map. I think you've already seen this topic where I propose how that can be done. The pathfinding bug needs to be found and fixed of course, and if it's not possible to raise the number of if statements it might be possible to add some new script commands that allow mapmakers to do more with fewer commands.
    Also, lots of stuff is currently possible by changing the config files, if that can be configured on a per map basis or even on the fly through the script that would be great as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endrix View Post
    I think some are impossible or difficult to implement. I do not understand why these innovations should provide more fun? I think it would be better to install some new creatures.
    New creatures or spells would be cool, but there's nobody to make the creatures. It requires a lot of work and skill to draw all the sprites for a single creature. Currently it is not possible to add another creature in the game, but mefisto has often said that he could easily make that possible and would do so as soon as anybody made the sprites for it.
    What is already in the game are placeholder statues. So if there is anybody reading this willing to make sprites to go into the game, you can start by making a statue/decoration that looks nice in the game (preferably one that matches a heroes-theme) or by making a torture animation for one of the heroes that have none. (Currently lots of heroes like the wizard are not seen tortured so in the torture chamber they are hidden inside the device).

  4. #4

    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    Endrix:

    Many of them would help provide more of a challenge while keeping certain elements. It's not so fun if it's easy. And it's not so fun if it's hard but to make it hard you had to remove the option for vampires, torture, etc. Like keeping a graveyard and vampires but not making it easy to get a vampire first of all and secondly, not let a player make an unstoppable army of vampires. Such things remove the challenge.

    You don't have to agree that these things would make it more fun. That's why I'm inviting ideas.
    Last edited by spartahawk; January 21st, 2018 at 23:17.

  5. #5

    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I really did like the direction Mefistotelis went in developing KeeperFX, in that he sought to remake the game, fixed the obvious bugs and mostly made improvements that left the regular game intact. Most people playing FX do so because they want to play DK1 as they remember or that they want to play the game to see how it was.
    Yeah for sure, that makes sense to have a version that is the same as the original with squashed bugs and basic improvements. I suppose I'm thinking of how there could be second version of KeeperFX for larger changes. But I understand not wanting big changes to how the game works.

    A lot of the brainstormed ideas I has certainly aren't well thought out. I'm sure many of them would break the functionality and gameplay as it is without making other adjustments. They're just ideas that came to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    I'd love to see flies burst out of corpses for example, but it has no place in the maps already out there.
    Certainly any changes to gameplay would need to be intended for different maps, and maps made with the intention of the original game wouldn't use a newer version with new functionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    A menu for skirmish maps could be nice as well, giving the players choices in how to play the level. For example with custom rules like 'breakable walls' or advantages for the computer player like double money, faster portal speed or increased portal limit.
    Great idea.


    I'll try to get to some of your other points soon. Great thoughts.
    Last edited by spartahawk; January 21st, 2018 at 23:32.

  6. #6

    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    Quote Originally Posted by spartahawk View Post
    1. Warlocks and Wizards can unlock any door including magic doors, or can re-lock it so that the other keepers creatures cannot pass through it (it becomes yours perhaps). They can also disarm traps and redirect boulders with a wave of the hand or staff. And they laugh every time they do since this amuses them so.
    2. Option to disable wall fortifications on the map, or only during certain times/places.
    3. Wall re-building possibility (see bile demons for one option).
    4. Bile demons past level 10 or something, if you don't keep them working or let them eat too much, they become level 11 and when they try to walk through a door or maybe hallway they get stuck and block it. The only way to free them is to dig them free. Until then no one can pass, and if they die or are killed there their corpse never decomposes enough to be able to pass through or over, or at least it takes a very long time to decompose. Good way to block places more permanently than doors. The one way to "re-build" a wall or barrier
    5. Bile demons try to sit in the temple pool and it ruins the temple (they splashed all the water out).
    6. Imps cannot carry bile demon bodies, or must team-up to carry them.
    7. A potions/magic room connected to the library wherein magic creatures (especially Wizards and Warlocks) can do special things. Make potions your imps can carry to splash on other creatures, and they become invisible while caring them after a warlock has cast the spell on them and the potion they carry in the magic room. Maybe this is how portals are connected by converted efforts in this room.
    8. Spell (perhaps cast with difficulty by a group of Wizards in your potions/magic room) to connect all portals temporarily and the underground glows (red or the keeper's color?) and if you drop your creatures in then, they'll come out another portal (maybe cast invisible on them). Also during this time they might get lost down there and not show up for awhile. It would be cool if you could do that in first person.
    9. Dark mistress cannot train, but can only level up by being tortured. Like Lord Vader, their increased pain and anger strengthens their power. Loving pain, they like to walk in lava and try to drown themselves in the temple.
    10. You can only have one vampire at a time, maybe only because if you have two they will immediately fight each other to the death, which you cannot interfere with (can't pick them up while they're fighting. Maybe you can never interrupt (pick up) a vampire while he is fighting (and that's kind of okay because he will resurrect if he dies).
    11. Ghosts can always pass through any door except magic doors (or magic doors hurt them to pass through)?
    12. Ability to tune the effectiveness and difficulty in capturing/torturing/turning enemy creatures, on a per-map basis. This might be done in several ways, for example Tentacles love to volunteer to be the torturers. Maybe this is the only way you can torture: your creatures must do it. Some creatures are more effective against certain other creatures.
    13. Change this if it's true: AI won't create more imps if his are still alive but captured? I wasn't even aware of this by the way. What a noob I am.
    14. Imps for graveyard carcasses shouldn't be allowed? As in imps disappear when they die and no corpse? If they are tortured they never defect.
    15. Imp sacrifice doesn't reduce imp spell cost. Maybe increases the level of all other living imps? Or you can only have so many imps before having to sacrifice creatures for them?
    16. AI improvements: this one is hard but would go a long way in every improvement. Looking for your best ideas. Biggest bang for buck could be crucial here.
    17. Flies lay eggs and larva grow and hatch on carcasses (which do not decompose otherwise unless this happens or hell hound pisses on them).
    18. Possible other creatures: Bat, Vader
    19. Vampires (and maybe all undead) run away from Monks and priestesses?
    20. Spiders can jump forward or backward quickly like a jumping spider.
    21. A certain amount of creatures must be guarding the prison or the prisoners can escape on their own. More creatures in prison increase chance of escape. Creatures with certain spells like Invisibility or something can sneak out of prison.
    22. Certain creatures will try to kill themselves in the prison rather than stay captured. Some will never defect by torture. Some will defect if they see a dark mistress walk by, or if you give them enough gold or if they have line of sight to a full treasure room.
    23. Keeper Freeze spell?
    24. Have disease be more effective. Creatures wander blindly. Diseased creatures cannot be healed in the temple. They just have a chance of surviving or not.
    25. Dungeon heart gets weaker with time? Shrinks when you use magic? Can go into A-fib and if you have creatures with lightning they will try to zap you back into consciousness.
    26. Dragons can fly anywhere that isn't in a confined space. They constantly sneak your gold and only give it up if tortured.
    27. Bat creature that only eats insects and will die without doing so. Can hear far away creatures, seeks them out, and give them diseases. Perhaps training to level 10 can become a vampire.
    28. Spiders can create webs as traps.
    29. Imps get frustrated if they mine gems for too long (since they never see physical progress!) and begin to dig elsewhere on their own for the satisfaction until you notice. They might even choose to dig through your fortified walls.
    To respond to your suggestions themselves:
    1) I think it would be really annoying if your warlocks unlocked your doors or set of your traps. Perhaps adding this as an angry-behavior would be cool. As for disarming traps I think an imp with speed should be able to disarm a visible trap without setting it off. And Sight of Evil was supposed to show still hidden traps,...
    3) The collapse spell was supposed to have this function, but it never made it into the game. Now the collapse spell is a poor-mans lightning with the ability to exploit the flee behavior. I think having this while there is no way for heroes to break walls is very overpowered. Another problem is that the game does not function if part of your dungeon is not connected to the heart. You can't have a map with two red dungeons.
    11) Ghost can already pass through doors.
    12) Fantastic idea.
    13) This is true, and there's already a partial solution implemented by having CPs sacrifice their imps so they can make more for cheap. Having imps in a enemy prison is expensive otherwise.
    14) I looked into making them go poof. I think it is best if they puff into smoke, so they don't collapse and can't be carried off to a graveyard or prison. But it needs an animation and currently the death animation of the imp clearly leaves a corpse. Unlike the ghost for example.
    15) Or simply have a level script to give a/all players a maximum number of imps? Simply disable the spell when you're there.
    16) Like I said, treasure room near gold/gems, capturing and converting enemies, map awareness (so they don't dig into strong heroes when they have Sight of Evil, but do dig into heroes than can defeat), sacrificing insects in the temple, throwing weak units in the portal when stronger are available.
    18) Who's gonna make them? If you want new creatures first I suggest is to allow super creatures, say a special creature of a certain type on a certain map which just looks a tiny bit different somehow.
    24) I think it is already very powerful as it is. If you cast a full power disease spell on a rival keeper it can devastate him, especially if he has vampires. Even invading heroes if there's a long route are all dead if they don't have the heal spell.
    25) I think this would be cool to through the level script, as an option/alternative to bonus_level_time, that your heart gets smaller and smaller as time runs out.
    29) It's actually already in the game manual that imps stop gems mining after a while. In the regular game after 10 trips, but I think you know this. They don't start vandalizing your dungeon no, and I think I like my imps without personalities.

  7. #7
    Demon Spawn Endrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    Maybe it would be possible to change only the color of the creatures?

    Demonspawn + Dragon in blue = Ice Demonspawn + Ice Dragon

    smaller Troll in green = Goblin

    Ghost in black = Shadow

    for example

  8. #8

    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    That would be easier of course, but keep in mind each creature consists of 600 images. You can make a blue dragon yourself. If you deliver the images, I'd be happy to provide you with a file that you can put in your game to replace on of the other creatures(for now). And indeed, those are the kind of changes you could do for 'elite units'.

    If you want, you can download the GFX data here. Look under the sprites folder for the creatures.

  9. #9

    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    A palette swap would be time consuming, but not complicated work by any means.

  10. #10
    Demon Spawn Endrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: DK1: Changes to make it even more fun

    Or only change a bigger size of the creatures and add it as boss creatures with new spells and stats.

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