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Thread: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

  
  1. #31
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Rebound for example is only turned on when a fight begins.
    While that is true, I don't think Wizards should feel the need to cast Rebound the instant they see a level 1 enemy Imp. I'd also like to see the creature AI lead their targets with projectile attacks, rather than always missing when facing a moving target. It should be a fairly trivial change that would give projectile-focused creatures a much needed boost.

  2. #32

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    O, it's very true that creatures don't cast their spells optimally, they just cast all combat spells when in combat. It also wouldn't be wise for them to cast their projectile spells against creatures with rebound for instance, but changing stuff like this would completely alter the balance of the units, but I don't think the battle system would be any more fun or engaging for the player.

    Which projectile-units do you feel are under-performing? Did you play around with warlocks in the latest alpha build, the meteor behaves quite a bit differently now.
    Also, keep in mind that spell damage is already increased in KeeperFX over DK, and if we indeed feel certain spells or certain units are underpowered, the easiest way to boost them is to simply raise the stats of the spell or unit.

    Their aim could be better on moving creatures, but in fights most creatures are generally standing still, or heading directly towards the units they'll fight and in both cases the spells connect.

  3. #33

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Well, maybe it would be an idea to make this an optional mode that can be called advanced AI. Optional because if someone doesn´t like the new FX changes so that it can easily be switched off.

    Yes, rebound and armour are only used in battle, and I´m sure it is on purpose that rebound often makes shooters bomb themselfes to death(I even had dragons that al-kaidad themselves in fights against knights with their meteor), but it can be also pretty annoying. Let´s say a smart wizard would not use fireball/meteor and missile but only drain when rebound is activated on the enemy.

    And yes, the actication triggered by L1 imps can also waste time(or save the imp ).
    Last edited by Noanechu; March 21st, 2018 at 20:46.

  4. #34

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Think about it this way, that would mean that a developer would spend time making an optional mode, having to completely rebalance all units and spells where you'd still end up with fights where you simply drop all units in combat and wait to see who wins.
    That developer now did not spend time trying to fix the pathfinding bug which makes complex maps crash, did not enhance the AI to build treasure rooms next to gems and convert enemies with the torture chamber and use level specials to be on equal footing with the player, did nothing to give mapmakers more options by implementing new script commands and making per level configs, did not work on making adding new units possible or enabling high resolution graphics.

    In other words, the only way I see this happening is if somebody really likes the idea and volunteers to make it. I certainly won't be pushing for it, since there's other stuff that would improve the game a lot more and I personally do not see it as making the game any more fun if units only used spells when it would really benefit them.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Which projectile-units do you feel are under-performing? Did you play around with warlocks in the latest alpha build, the meteor behaves quite a bit differently now.
    Also, keep in mind that spell damage is already increased in KeeperFX over DK, and if we indeed feel certain spells or certain units are underpowered, the easiest way to boost them is to simply raise the stats of the spell or unit.

    Their aim could be better on moving creatures, but in fights most creatures are generally standing still, or heading directly towards the units they'll fight and in both cases the spells connect.
    I was mainly thinking of how great the reduction in proficiency is when facing possessed creatures. I know possession already makes most fights a trivial matter, but it has always been ridiculously easy to dodge almost everything a caster can conjure. For example, a group of Fairies is quite dangerous to all creatures, possessed or not, whereas a group of Wizards is potentially meaningless when up against a possessed creature. Nevertheless, while this is really a very minor issue and likely not even really worth considering, I think implementing a solution would be equally as minor. Regardless, I think I will not take up any more time from the more important issues.

    Are these alpha builds just as "stable" as the current unofficial version of the game? And am I going to need to have a different version/installation of the game for each release?

  6. #36

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Well, we hope to not introduce any new bugs that can hang or crash the game. But we might, and that's one of the reasons I share them so people can tell me if we've introduced new crashes, hangs or other bugs, or made changes that don't work out too well.

    I don't know what you mean by needing a different version of the game,... but these alpha builds can be downloaded and pasted over the latest unofficial build. You can easily update your old alpha build by downloading the latest. That is until in the distant future a new version is released, than the new alpha's require at least that version.

  7. #37

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Quote Originally Posted by YourMaster View Post
    Think about it this way, that would mean that a developer would spend time making an optional mode, having to completely rebalance all units and spells where you'd still end up with fights where you simply drop all units in combat and wait to see who wins.
    That developer now did not spend time trying to fix the pathfinding bug which makes complex maps crash, did not enhance the AI to build treasure rooms next to gems and convert enemies with the torture chamber and use level specials to be on equal footing with the player, did nothing to give mapmakers more options by implementing new script commands and making per level configs, did not work on making adding new units possible or enabling high resolution graphics.

    In other words, the only way I see this happening is if somebody really likes the idea and volunteers to make it. I certainly won't be pushing for it, since there's other stuff that would improve the game a lot more and I personally do not see it as making the game any more fun if units only used spells when it would really benefit them.
    I don´t doubt that fixing real issues like the pathfinding bug are more important . But to be honest, IMHO a lot of changes already change the game experience compared to the original. See, smarter enemy keepers are surely desirable if experienced long-time players need a bigger challenge, but when enemy keepers were pretty dumb in the original game, well, then it is how it is.
    Also the grenade spell is one of the mightier ones in the game. It was already pretty devastating in possession mode.

    Giving the option to enable and disable some changes via the launcher would be also good for some changes that not all might want. E.G. I´m not the biggest fan of the bigger dots on the minimap(I had no issues with the original mini dots). Or that some bugs like the claiming neutral creatures through diagonal rifts and digging through neutral walls in possession mode were fixed - because in 99 % of the levels they aren´t problemativ but in 1 % they make them unsolvable(see the moon level of the Arctic campaign) or more annoying to solve(in Morkardar I don´t desire to play it again in a "normal" way when I rushed it with Horny).

    Don´t get me wrong, I appreciate the work of the devs to improve the Dungeon Keeper gameplay, but for some changes it is debatable if these are desired. Therefore I´m not that lucky that when installing an alpha build I have some changes that are ok, but others not. Just my 2 cents.

  8. #38

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Developer here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noanechu View Post
    Giving the option to enable and disable some changes via the launcher would be also good for some changes that not all might want. E.G. I´m not the biggest fan of the bigger dots on the minimap(I had no issues with the original mini dots).
    This is a tough thing to find balance for, apparently. What is the resolution and physical size of screen? Are there particular zoom levels that you dislike the dot sizes? We talked a lot about what was reasonable and most helpful, and the sizes at each zoom level were what we arrived at. Some people with higher resolution screens really had to strain at the tiny 1-pixel dots in the map screen and some minimap zoom levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noanechu View Post
    Giving the option to enable and disable some changes via the launcher would be also good for some changes that not all might want.
    If this is done, it will be before a release, perhaps. And only if it doesn't take more time than I'd like to spend on it. I can definitely appreciate the desire to not lose functionality you like in exchange for some functionality you want to enjoy. Some things I think are clearly bugs though, and even if they can be taken advantage of, they're mistakes in development rather than intentional things to be exploited. Just my opinion. I definitely see where you're coming from. There are all sorts of things I've thought about that I have noticed from changes we have made that could create similar exploitable bugs like being able to shoot lightning through walls or blast yourself over a guard post from water, and some of them might be cool, but in the end if we're going to make a single version for now without user customizability, we have to decide one way or the other. If there's enough demand for or against something, we're open to the ideas of the majority feedback.
    Last edited by spartahawk; March 22nd, 2018 at 22:25.

  9. #39

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Hey.

    This is a tough thing to find balance for, apparently. What is the resolution and physical size of screen? Are there particular zoom levels that you dislike the dot sizes? We talked a lot about what was reasonable and most helpful, and the sizes at each zoom level were what we arrived at. Some people with higher resolution screens really had to strain at the tiny 1-pixel dots in the map screen and some minimap zoom levels.
    I use a 24 and a 27" monitor, both FullHD, but never had issues with the old dots. I also play always in 640x480 because I like that the best, higher resolutions only make the black empty area on the left side bigger(which I don´t like that much). I tried 640x400 widescreen resolution but the menus and the overview won´t work with that.
    As I record sometimes DK videos for Youtube ingame resolution changes are a bit annoying as these cause the recording software to stop or crash. So at the moment I record in 1440x1080(upscaled) via Bandicam in 4:3 ration.

    If this is done, it will be before a release, perhaps. And only if it doesn't take more time than I'd like to spend on it. I can definitely appreciate the desire to not lose functionality you like in exchange for some functionality you want to enjoy.
    Well, let´s see how this will work out.

    Some things I think are clearly bugs though, and even if they can be taken advantage of, they're mistakes in development rather than intentional things to be exploited.
    Yes, like I said, to fix real bugs is good, like the original non-working WOP spell which did no damage.
    However as glitches like the neutral wall thing can´t be abused in so much levels I don´t see such a big deal to fix things like that. The only levels I know where it really can matter are Blaise End(where the rushing also needs a lot of expertise) and Morkardar(where it quickens the way to claim Horny). Some things like the possession mode are from a viewpoint of balance OP anyway(like rushing into an enemies dungeon and roasting the heart with a dragon), and I doubt that anyone wants to change too much as it would be like a new game.
    Of course things like shooting through walls aren´t desirable(if this ever occurred in some build).

  10. #40

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Quote Originally Posted by Noanechu View Post
    I don´t doubt that fixing real issues like the pathfinding bug are more important . But to be honest, IMHO a lot of changes already change the game experience compared to the original. See, smarter enemy keepers are surely desirable if experienced long-time players need a bigger challenge, but when enemy keepers were pretty dumb in the original game, well, then it is how it is.
    Also the grenade spell is one of the mightier ones in the game. It was already pretty devastating in possession mode.

    Giving the option to enable and disable some changes via the launcher would be also good for some changes that not all might want. E.G. I´m not the biggest fan of the bigger dots on the minimap(I had no issues with the original mini dots). Or that some bugs like the claiming neutral creatures through diagonal rifts and digging through neutral walls in possession mode were fixed - because in 99 % of the levels they aren´t problemativ but in 1 % they make them unsolvable(see the moon level of the Arctic campaign) or more annoying to solve(in Morkardar I don´t desire to play it again in a "normal" way when I rushed it with Horny).

    Don´t get me wrong, I appreciate the work of the devs to improve the Dungeon Keeper gameplay, but for some changes it is debatable if these are desired. Therefore I´m not that lucky that when installing an alpha build I have some changes that are ok, but others not. Just my 2 cents.
    O, I don't doubt there are changes to the game, and bug fixes will change the experience. And hopefully, an enhanced experience.
    I'm sure I won't succeed in making the right or popular choice every time, but what you're saying is exactly why I try to find the right balance, if it's a big change that affects lots of content already out there it should at the very least be a big benefit that comes with it. My estimate is that creatures using their spells in a completely different way changes a lot, but improves too little.

    And certain changes might negatively impact some maps, mostly because map makers specifically build around the bugs like Ancient Keeper, but what's not visible is that those things really are problematic for a lot of maps, or that mapmakers will be able to do a lot less. Look at the neutral wall thing, it was unknown so the impact was minimal, but now that it is out you can never have neutral walls anymore on maps because players can dig right through. The claiming through walls is also a dumb thing, it doesn't make any map more fun - except for the one map out of the 2000 we have that relies on this bug - but makes it neigh impossible for mapmakers to make maps where the player actually has to do something before he can claim the neutral creature. I can't think of any bugs right now still in the game that maps rely on, but if bugs like that were to be fixed they would be added to classic bug mode so they'd stay on those maps alone. Making every change configurable though, would be quite some additional work.

    The improved AI is a difficult one there, as it will change maps and there's nothing to do against that. Some possible improvements like giving them the ability to torture units could be limited by the configs or level scripts to only work on maps where you'd want it, but others will simply require the levels to all be rebalanced when the game is complete. But keep in mind that in 1997 there were several campaign maps where the AI simply did nothing, if people want that experience they can simply edit their script to disable the AI, but most people, even the people who play the level for the first time, would not be happy to find out that the AI did nothing at all when they finally get to him.

    But, for me, my focus for continued development would really be additions. The nice thing about those, is that nobody can be against them, because if they don't like the addition the simply can go without. Fixing the pathfinding bug for example allows people to play many maps that are now impossible, some already made, and hopefully many more will be made that can't be made now. But also implementing new script commands and other features for mapmakers will simply be more possible enjoyment on new maps, without taking away anything from the maps that are already there.

    As for the minimap-dots sizes, I believe they are actually about the size now they were in the original game, in the original resolution. When KeeperFX introduced a higher resolution, the entire menu shrank with it a lot, which many people disliked. Then at one point the menu was restored to the original size, just the minimap dots remained extra small on high resolutions. Then there were people who were unhappy with the restored menu, and now you are also unhappy about the restored dots. It took me a bit to get used to it, but now I really like it and guess most people would prefer it too, so you'd be in the minority. That does not make you wrong, just shit out of luck. If from the alpha test we learn that you are in fact not the minority in this, this change could easily be reverted.
    Important to note though, this change was certainly not something that would have been high up on my list of priorities. It is just something that caught sparta's eye and gave us a chance to get a working process/relationship in place. And there will probably be other stuff released which has very low priority, but is something that interests sparta from a coding perspective or whatever other reason. That's the prerogative of the person doing the actual work.
    That being said, Mefisto was against changing the menu, but it is on my wish-list to do some interface improvements, and stuff like that could very well be configurable.




    To talk about your specific examples - the grenade is indeed a major change, and I really hope to get feedback on it, because it changes everything. Keep in mind though that I nerfed the spell an awful lot now that all units can use it. It does a lot less damage, gives of a much smaller explosion, and most importantly it has a very long reset time. Units can use grenade as infrequently as they can word of power.

    Are you really sure we're talking about the same change to digging through neutral walls? In blaise end I changed the room back through neutral like it was in the original game, and when you claim the path next to it the walls change to dirt and you can dig through it. What did change is that you can no longer actually dig through a wall when it is still a wall in possession.
    And what's the matter with Morkardar, I do not know what you are referring to here, but if something is different now I can look into it and perhaps change the map around the changed functionality.

    EDIT:


    Quote Originally Posted by Noanechu View Post
    I use a 24 and a 27" monitor, both FullHD, but never had issues with the old dots. I also play always in 640x480 because I like that the best, higher resolutions only make the black empty area on the left side bigger(which I don´t like that much). I tried 640x400 widescreen resolution but the menus and the overview won´t work with that.
    As I record sometimes DK videos for Youtube ingame resolution changes are a bit annoying as these cause the recording software to stop or crash. So at the moment I record in 1440x1080(upscaled) via Bandicam in 4:3 ration.

    However as glitches like the neutral wall thing can´t be abused in so much levels I don´t see such a big deal to fix things like that. The only levels I know where it really can matter are Blaise End(where the rushing also needs a lot of expertise) and Morkardar(where it quickens the way to claim Horny).
    Yeah, I agree, on the 640x480 resolution the minimap now indeed looks worse. Most people probably use the higher resolution, and there it now looks better. It's a trade-off. Perhaps someday we'll get to have a longer menu that fills the screen and can fit more creatures in the selection list.

    I looked at Morkardar, and it would take more time to rush through the reaper using the now fixed bug(slowly digging through the reinforced wall in possession), than if you would simply possess and imp, dig towards the reaper while claiming the path, and dig through the side of the reaper-room that is now dirt.
    Last edited by YourMaster; March 22nd, 2018 at 23:57.

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