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Thread: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

  
  1. #71
    Ghost
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Creatures are blown all over the place when a meteor hits, with just 1 creature casting it, it's not really a problem. With 10+ doing it, things just get out of hand. Same goes for the Grenade spell. They don't bounce around like they do when in 1st person mode. They hit just like a normal projectile when a creature uses it. Combine that with a nice amount of splash damage and you wipe a full army out in seconds.

    About the path finding, see savegame (latest alpha build, but the earlier ones also had the problem) creatures get stuck at about every corner with a room post. You can easily reproduce it at a temple where creatures have to walk around it. A lot of them will get stuck. When you slap them or they get hungry, they will go back to the path they wanted to go in the first place.

    And another thing, Ancient Keeper doesn't work properly cause you can't dig through neutral walls. (I think it's level 6 or 7, where you have to get through a neutral wall to claim a library)
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    Last edited by Krizzie; May 21st, 2018 at 15:42. Reason: Added savegame

  2. #72

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Yeah, thanks. With a 3x3 temple I can get units stuck on poles on the latest version, not on an older version. So it is indeed a new bug.

    As for the splash damage, I reduced the blow in the config files until I felt it was ok. Just to be sure, are you using the updated configs that came with the alpha, or are you using your own 'custom' configs which may have much, much more blow and damage than the one I put in the archive? If not, do you really think the only way is to terminate this feature, or would simply tweaking the numbers a bit also work, reducing damage and/or blow further.
    The grenade not bouncing so much anymore is by design, it's not super overpowered anymore, but easier to use so that units can use it as well.

    I'll try to find the ancient keeper map. I've looked at the walk-through but didn't find it yet. If it is actually used on maps, the best course of action would probably to add it to 'classic bug mode'.
    EDIT: I haven't found a level with a neutral library you should claim. Are you sure it's on ancient keeper?
    Last edited by YourMaster; May 22nd, 2018 at 00:33.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    I downloaded the latest official keeper FX and then went to the latest alpha. I haven't changed any files myself.

    As for Ancient Keeper, It's level 10, University of Hades. In the top middle of the map there's an Island with two spells and a room which is surrounded by neutral walls. There's a Library in there if I'm remembering correctly. You need that to get into Green's dungeon. (Call to arms on a enemy room to destroy it, so the fortified wall goes away when the heart is destroyed.

    Edit: I see the tutorial has a different approach to it. :lol:


    Edit2:

    Is it possible to limit the amount of workshop tiles an AI can make? In longer games sometimes the AI goes wild in making workshops, which makes the game unstable. For surviving from the workshop I think 3 6x6 workshops would be more than enough and still keep the game stable. (192 tiles)
    Last edited by Krizzie; May 24th, 2018 at 07:43.

  4. #74

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    When AI has 192 number of workshop tiles -> remove ability to make workshop.

    Unless you meant in general, and not on a specific level.

  5. #75

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    The alpha builds should go over the latest full 'unofficial' release. Although in this specific case, I don't think it matters. But so, do you think simply reducing the blow of these spells would be enough?

    And yeah, I know the AI builds too many workshops. Everything could be changed of course, but it would require some work. I'd prioritize not making the game unstable when there's lots of pathways around first, but eventually this has too be tackled too.
    For specific maps where it's always an issue, the level script can be updated to take away access to a workshop from the CP when he has a certain number of workshop tiles.

    EDIT: And on this AK-map it's clear that the solution SHOULD BE to have the orcs vandalize the walls. So, the bug fix actually fixed this level, it did not break it.
    Last edited by YourMaster; May 24th, 2018 at 10:12.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    For the meteor, I think a low splash is fine. You deal big damage to the minion that get's hit and the surroundings get pushed away a little (maybe 20% of a Word of Power Trap/Spell)

    As for the Grenade, I think it should be a player only thing and not be used by creatures. Unless you can make it behave like it does in First person mode. As in it bounces around randomly. As it is now it is certainly not a good addition to the game.

    An army of 50+ level 10 minions just evaporate by a couple of minions that have grenade. The AI can drop a lot more and quicker so it's like one big nuke going off killing everything in a few seconds.

  7. #77

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    OK, I'll look into the grenade with your feedback, starting fights against an AI with many grenade-owning units.

    Edit: Could you replace your magic.cfg with this one: (magic.zip), and tell me what you think?
    Last edited by YourMaster; May 24th, 2018 at 21:53.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Will test it, thanks!

  9. #79
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    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Damage output is alright now, at least armies don't evaporate in a second. But creatures still get tossed around way too much when multiple grenades are being used. (Same goes for Meteor) Also they still act like normal projectiles. (so no random bounce around)

    I understand why Bullfrog didn't activate it for the AI to use, cause it's just frustrating to play against.

    I suggest reverting things back to the way they were (so no grenades and no big splash effects) and start focusing on more critical things like, hitting "things" limiters which cause the game to crash or behave strangely.

  10. #80

    Default Re: KeeperFX Unofficial - continued development - alpha builds

    Thanks for the feedback. I can still tweak the settings some more, no need to give up after the first attempt.

    But like I said, the random bounce is not coming back unless the entire feature is reverted. The fact that units could not aim it was what kept it disabled for use, not the push back. That being said, even with it fixed, it needs to be balanced and fun. I'm using your feedback - and hopefully the feedback of others as well - to try to get the balance right. And hopefully that will cause people to find it a very fun addition. If not, we can reduce it again.

    Same thing with meteor, that actually was a bug, not a decisions by bullfrog that caused it to not explode on impact against units at all. But that also meant that Bullfrog never balanced the spell or tested it with the spell working. A fact that's very obvious if you consider that I already reduced the original values a lot to make sure you do not kill your own army in a few hits with the spell. So where I might revert the Grenade if I can't get it to work well enough (or hopefully add it as an additional spell that people can mod into their own games or custom campaigns), the meteor fix is there to stay. I'm not willing to reintroduce a logic error that says 'no, there's no clear path between you and the meteor that just hit you in the face, so zero damage'. You might not have noticed, but before this fix if you hit a wall or floor with a meteor, sometimes it caused a massive explosion that pushed units away, and sometimes it did absolutely nothing.
    The only way forward here is to re-balance the spell, if needed to always have 0 blow.

    As for focusing on more critical things,.... well, sure those things are much higher on my list, but we can't always get what we want. Those things are very difficult to fix, and spartahawk - who picked up development - is first trying to get the hang of things by trying some easier things. The Meteor and Grenade changes he did not even do, but code we got handed to us by Schizz, who made them for himself. So this did not detract from those important things. Balancing it, or possibly removing it again, costs me time, but I can't develop any way.

    As for the pathfinding bug, we have been looking into it. In a prototype we removed all the pathfinding code Mefisto wrote and fully restored the bullfrog pathfinding and the pathfinding bug was still there. So we've confirmed the bug really is in the bullfrog code where we can't touch it unless Mefisto is coming back to rewrite parts of it. We've had some thoughts about trying to work around this, which might help. That was a few weeks ago when sparta last worked on this game, he'll probably get back to it soon and we'll see if we can make a difference.

    In any case, when I get around to it, I'll provide a new config that hopefully you'll like better.

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