Hellhounds do not scout any more in KeeperFX?

[0etelaer]

I'M HUNGRY

Yesterday, Treebeard would help me out in the campaign I'm building, making it in Deeper Dungeons for general use, by testing maps in live streams. Folks could give feedback for improvement, and I could see the maps played in the last version of KeeperFX. I would like it to be compatible with KeeperFX. Later on, once all maps are made, I want to start the KeeperFX implementation, making wav files, an image for the flags, and maybe use some new scripting also.

Unfortunately, it seemed the first map already is not compatible with KeeperFX, because the Hellhounds don't scout.
The behavior of Hellhounds in that map is very significant. The map starts off by the whole idea of Hellhounds attacking imps on a large river, forcing the player to guard post himself in. A tutorial for Guard Posts at water, if you will. For less experienced Keepers. The whole layout of the map, is based on the behavior of Hellhounds in the original game. Meaning, the parties stay at places, because they will not attack the Keeper, because his Heart is behind a Guard Post after water. But since the Hellhounds don't scout in KeeperFX, the Guard Post is not needed, and all the hero parties run to the Hearth at once, giving a rather empty map with one big fight, instead of lots of small fights during the game play.

So I have to make a complete new map, and maybe many more extra maps. For a different KeeperFX version of the campaign, without Hellhounds scouting, because KeeperFX folk seem to believe that Dungeon Keeper must be improved. This problem is already for 10 years in the KeeperFX community, that folks believe that they can improve this work of art that Dungeon Keeper is. For your information: If you change a recipe for your favorite food, it will not be your favorite food any more.

Any ways, I became active in Dungeon Keeper again, because there now is a free Dosbox version to download. I would quit Dungeon Keeper, when I only had KeeperFX to make it work on modern computers, because "fans" had destroyed the game by all the changes they made. KeeperFX has some what improved from that, but if I see TheTreeBeard play, I see all the faults KeeperFX has, and am not interested in playing it myself. Yes, building large rooms at once is nice, but not being able to select creatures from the icon menu by level any more, as is possible with the original game, is to much damage for me to bare. And I am sure I am not the only one. The changes in Keeper AI I read about, also don't make me happy. If Dungeon Keeper would crash, I always assumed the AI Keeper was cheating to win.

Ancient Keeper has now legacy .cfg files.
But the behavior of Hellhounds seems to be hardcoded in KeeperFX, my question at the Discord for technical problems gave no solution.

The second level Tree tested in KeeperFX, didn't give any problems. Except that the Hero Keeper didn't use the disease spell I gave him. This could however be, because there where no fights on the hero tiles, Tree played the map differently than I did in Deeper Dungeons. Friday Treebeard will most likely test one or two more maps for your folks, from the same campaign. Tree is the only one that has the files, except for me. And we'll see if more problems arise.

I make also many changes myself in the maps I make?
Not really. Yes, Column mode is new, invented by Jon Skeet. And using it is very difficult to do in a tasteful manner. But in my opinion, all the rules stay the same in the game with column mode, although it is sometimes hard to calculate why things are happening, as column mode creates it to be. I mean, kix also used a lots of column mode in his latest campaign, I see no where any damage to game play from it.
But not being able to select creatures by level is very damaging. I sometimes almost have to cry, when I see Tree throwing level 5 mistresses at dangerous parties, just because he can't select only level 6 mistresses in KeeperFX, as is easy to do in the original game.

[YourMaster]

but the behavior of Hellhounds seems to be hardcoded in KeeperFX, my question at the Discord for technical problems gave no solution.

No, currently there is no real solution. It's not so much a Hellhound behavior, but the KeeperAI behavior. In the original the AI often failed to handle his units, and often did not know how to assign his units. In KeeperFX he is much more effective with his units, but that of course means that maps designed around the original limitations work not so well.
I am however very open to finding a solution here, and if you have suggestions on how to tweak the behavior of the AI to mimic the original behavior when this is required I would love to hear them.

The second level Tree tested in KeeperFX, didn't give any problems. Except that the Hero Keeper didn't use the disease spell I gave him. This could however be, because there where no fights on the hero tiles

The AI in FX still casts disease.

But not being able to select creatures by level is very damaging. I sometimes almost have to cry, when I see Tree throwing level 5 mistresses at dangerous parties, just because he can't select only level 6 mistresses in KeeperFX, as is easy to do in the original game.

You can still select units sorted by level. See here.

[YourMaster]

The changes in Keeper AI I read about, also don't make me happy. If Dungeon Keeper would crash, I always assumed the AI Keeper was cheating to win.

Ancient Keeper has now legacy .cfg files.
But the behavior of Hellhounds seems to be hardcoded in KeeperFX,..

Basically everything of the AI is defined through the keepcompp.cfg file by the way. But also the legacy folder does not have a specific AI file, it just uses the default. It's totally possible - without having to write any code - to include a keepcompp.cfg that emulates the old behavior. Just somebody needs to sit down with it and make it, which would require lots of playtesting.
You or anybody else is welcome to deliver this.

[Shinthoras0815]

I don't remember how AI the behavior was in Deeper Dungeon and I didn't follow the stream closely enough to know what else the Ai should or shouldn't do. But you can completely disable the behavior of the Ai in KFX in a per map basis through scripts commands

SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2, "MOVE CREATURE TO BEST ROOM",270,75,0, 0, 0)
ensures that creatures are assigned to rooms and

SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2, "MOVE CREATURE TO TRAINING",400,95, 6, 0, 7000)
makes sure that creatures are put into the training room.

The numbers are the current KFX values, if you just set them all to 0 no more creatures will be assigned to rooms but the rest of the Ai remains.
Or you try around with the values until you get the desired behavior.
For this two checks we only know from the first numbers what they do, 270 and 400 are the game turns interval between checks.

[Shinthoras0815]

Try this
SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2, "MOVE CREATURE TO TRAINING",400,5, 10, 0, 0)

After some trial and error I found out: the last number tells when to start the checks
and if you decrease the 2nd number and increase the 3rd one creatures will be put less and slower into the training room.
I think the 2nd value could be something like:
"Percentage of all creatures that should be trained."

with the above values the creatures are put into the training room slowly and sporadically.

[YourMaster]

Sorry Shintho, I did not expect others to be bothered at this point, but I already gave him these checks to try.

REM Reassigns units to the best possible room, <every gameturns>,<percentage of units>
SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2,"MOVE CREATURE TO BEST ROOM",300,15,0,0,0)
REM Puts units in specific room, <every gameturns>,<percentage of units>,<training room>,<>,<start at turn 7000>
SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2,"MOVE CREATURE TO TRAINING",400,10,6,0,7000)

[Shinthoras0815]

Sorry Shintho, I did not expect others to be bothered at this point, but I already gave him these checks to try.

REM Reassigns units to the best possible room, <every gameturns>,<percentage of units>
SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2,"MOVE CREATURE TO BEST ROOM",300,15,0,0,0)
REM Puts units in specific room, <every gameturns>,<percentage of units>,<training room>,<>,<start at turn 7000>
SET_COMPUTER_CHECKS(PLAYER2,"MOVE CREATURE TO TRAINING",400,10,6,0,7000)

oh ok

so, at MOVE CREATURE TO TRAINING
what is the meaning of "training room = 6"
what happen if i change that number?

and could you please add the meaning of this values in keepcompp.cfg too?^^

[YourMaster]

If you change the 6 to another room number, it will move them to another room type. And yes, I tend to document the ones I have figured out.

[0etelaer]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THANK YOU BULLFROG FOR THIS WONDERFUL GAME
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TheTreeBeard now tested the levels 3 and 4.
I tested them myself in Deeper Dungeons several times.

My conclusion is: KeeperFX moved COMPUTER_PLAYER(PLAYER1,0) to COMPUTER_PLAYER(PLAYER1,7) from Deeper Dungeons.
The AI from 7 is the defensive computer player. Computer player 0 is aggressive.

Map 3
The KeeperFX Keepers do not build bridges to attack the human player.
In Deeper Dungeons, they would build bridges, and dig out big parts of the earth north, as soon as the gold seam was breached.

Map 4
KeeperFX AI doesn't build bridges to attack, doesn't attack by digging. KeeperFX's AI strategy for aggressiveness is much less strong in effectiveness. KeeperFX creatures attack alone, or in very small groups, rather than a strong party from the Dungeon. The TreeBeard could just pick them out with ease, in which I wouldn't succeed in Deeper Dungeons, although I tried it several times. In fact, the AI in Deeper Dungeons was so effective, that I could only capture one Samurai from the heroes, while I couldn't use that one for scavenging more samurai, because the Hero Keeper had diseased all Samurai from Yellow PLAYER3. I would set up PLAYER_GOOD as an aggressive player, 0. But again, PLAYER_GOOD didn't use the disease spell in KeeperFX, as he refused to do in level 2, although there was enough reason and opportunity for it in map 4. As it did in Deeper Dungeons many times.

So the map looses a lot of quality. The human player becomes much to strong, because he can capture and scavenge all the Samurai from Player3, which is hardly possible in Deeper Dungeons. And thus the human player marches in into Keeper south, who didn't attack the human player at all, as it did in Deeper Dungeons. In Deeper Dungeons, the Keeper in the south had build bridges to the Human player, and was attacking all the time by sending imps to claim, while the Samurai Keeper would help out the Keeper in the South. In KeeperFX. the two allied AI Keepers didn't help each other in attacking, as they did in Deeper Dungeons.

In Discord, I saw some one say: "I prefer the Gog version, because I don't like all the changes in KeeperFX"
At this point, I must agree. And if KeeperFX doesn't get his act together, I may have to advice, that the campaign I am making should preferably be played in the Gog version. As many other maps.
But that's not what I want to achieve: I hope KeeperFX will become as good as Deeper Dungeons, so I can make he 40 wavs, the images for flags, and many more features KeeperFX offers for mapmakers.

Analyzing what is the problem here, I remember the following quote: "Peter Molyneux made the Dungeon Keeper AI in 2 weeks." Well, this is a lie. He wrote the code in two weeks, and only for Dungeon Keeper before the patch. He also made the AI in more than a year of testing strategies in Dungeon Keeper Multi-player, playing against members of the Bullfrog team, playing against testers, playing against invited outsiders to play. A year of multi-player experience, to design a strategy for an AI keeper. In such a year of preparation, not only the strategies where considered, but also the coding algorithms pondered up one, while traveling and whatever, maybe also discussing the problems with members of the team, doing research. And we are now talking the first publication of Dungeon Keeper only. Once Dungeon Keeper was published, the AI was perfected by a team of programmers, who knew the engine in and out, played the game often in multiplayer, and it took them several months to update the code for Deeper Dungeons and to the patch for Dungeon Keeper. How long, I do not know, ... Dungeon Keeper was published in June 1997, Deeper Dungeons 26 November 1997, so that's about half a year to develop the AI with the team. Only more development on the AI, and the extra maps. A lot of work, experience an craftsmanship went into the half year of AI development.

But of course, KeeperFX coders also play Dungeon Keeper multiplayer with fellows and outsiders every week, know the Magic Carpet engine in and out.
Whatever.

So what are the changes KeeperFX made, that turns people off?

• Horned Reaper can not be made happy any more by a hand of gold. Instead, if there is no temple, or it's health is to low, one has to possess Horned, find, or make, a dead body, stand on it to make Horned happy again. Nice flow folks.
• Selecting the highest level creatures can be done in Keeperfx by pressing Ctrl. In Dungeon Keeper, no button had to be pressed, one could select the highest level creatures directly from the menu.
  
• Aggressive AI in offensive mode, has become defensive AI without initiative.
• It has become almost impossible to sneak in on the heart of an AI Keeper, which was usually the way many maps where ended with joy in Dungeon Keeper. Don't play for example Dixaroc in KeeperFX, it will take even longer to finish.
• no more scouting by flies and hellhounds in KeeperFX, thus was boredom assured. No surprised any more to wake you up, no information on the places with enemies in the realm. Since the behavior of Hellhounds is based on the behavior of dogs in the military, I propose to rename them into either Hellrabits or Hellcats for KeeperFX.

Repetition.
I am not making a campaign for the old game.
If that would be so, I wouldn't arrange testing the maps in KeeperFX.
Maps made for KeeperFX, are KeeperFX maps, not Dungeon Keeper maps, thus have a much smaller audience. The Dosbox version isn't to great, it hangs with every payday, it hangs when new parties spawn, but it obeys the rules of the game.