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Thread: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

  
  1. #21

    Default Re: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

    Thank you for your answer.

    Yeah, torturing needs to be cautious, else enemy creatures die. In vanilla game anyway, wounds are less brutal and creatures die less quickly. With Gim, you need to heal the victims more often, maybe too much often IMO.

    That's something I would like to edit with DK2 Editor.

    The other thing I'd like to edit is the distance a creature can see so it won't attack from too far (e.g. even enemy creatures that are still in the fog of war). In level 11a, that is a problem since the dungeon heart is really exposed and my salamanders attack all the time in all directions, so I cannot keep an eye on them, another on victims in the torture chamber, a third on my imps and a fourth on yellow and pink Keepers that are fighting each other (and my salamanders are in-between).

    The problem is that I found the same values (10 tiles for distance can see and -6 to -15 for wounds in torture room) for those two variables, for vanilla GOG game and for game patched with Gim. So I don't know if changing those variables will make any change ingame.

    Or maybe I must look in a particuliar level file?

  2. #22
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    Yeah, torturing needs to be cautious, else enemy creatures die. In vanilla game anyway, wounds are less brutal and creatures die less quickly. With Gim, you need to heal the victims more often, maybe too much often IMO.
    I took a quick look at GIM's data and there doesn't seem to be any change in torture damage. As far as I know there's no other way to increase rate of torture damage, unless Wyrmcast discovered something and decided not to share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    The other thing I'd like to edit is the distance a creature can see so it won't attack from too far (e.g. even enemy creatures that are still in the fog of war). In level 11a, that is a problem since the dungeon heart is really exposed and my salamanders attack all the time in all directions, so I cannot keep an eye on them,
    Ok, so I misread or misinterpreted your first message in regards to this. I thought you were setting the Distance Can See value to 10, not that it was 10 in GIM. Wow, I never knew GIM had that setting. That's... really really bad.

    4 is the value in the original game for both Distance can See and Hear. You can go probably up to 6, as that is about the limit of what gets revealed at fog of war. 10 is just, yikes.
    The difference between See and Hear is that Distance can Hear goes around walls and doors, whereas Distance can See is stopped at walls and doors. So setting Hear up too high and creatures will attack enemies behind enemy doors, too aggressive. It can also cause Heroes to leave their post to attack player creatures nearby or imps claiming land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    a third on my imps
    What are you trying to change about imps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    The problem is that I found the same values (10 tiles for distance can see and -6 to -15 for wounds in torture room) for those two variables, for vanilla GOG game and for game patched with Gim. So I don't know if changing those variables will make any change ingame.
    Did you open up a vanilla map along with a GIM map? If you did, you probably loaded up GIM's global, IE its configuration data. So if you go to the vanilla map in the editor tab and then open up configuration data, you're not looking at vanilla data but GIM data.

    Either that or you accidentally saved GIM's global data. Vanilla maps don't have global data saved, there's only 6 map files associated with them. So if you had GIM campaign maps and then wanted to get rid of them, you can't just overwrite them with the vanilla map files, you need to also delete the global data files associated with them.

    Also, in regards to having multiple maps open in the editor at once. Because the vanilla maps don't have global data, you won't get that prompt to load the map's global data when you load it, and it will instead retain any current global data opened up in the editor. So if you open up a GIM map first, even if you close it before opening up a vanilla map, it'll still have GIM's global data when you look up configuration data. Need to close / reopen the editor or have two separate editors open if you want to actively compare values.

    Honestly when I played GIM the other day to try 1.51, I disregarded the instructions (it asks you to delete your entire map folder which is just AFoanfuAOFH unnecessary). Instead, just need to put DKII.exe, DKII.icd, DKII-DX.exe, patch.dll, QMixer.dll, SFMAN32.dll files into the main directory. Then run DKII.exe for 1.51 or DKII-DX.exe for 1.7. For GOG installations anyway.
    Of course, now I might suggest deleting your map sub folder to get rid of GIM stuff and replace it with a vanilla copy instead. And, you might also want this.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  3. #23

    Default Re: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

    Thank you for your answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    I took a quick look at GIM's data and there doesn't seem to be any change in torture damage. As far as I know there's no other way to increase rate of torture damage, unless Wyrmcast discovered something and decided not to share.
    What I discovered with Gim is that most creatures need to be healed several times before getting converted. I don't think the conversion time is longer, so I supposed it comes from health reduction in the torture room as shown here:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    But that may also come from the total health of the creature which could have been decreased in Gim?


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Ok, so I misread or misinterpreted your first message in regards to this. I thought you were setting the Distance Can See value to 10, not that it was 10 in GIM. Wow, I never knew GIM had that setting. That's... really really bad.

    4 is the value in the original game for both Distance can See and Hear. You can go probably up to 6, as that is about the limit of what gets revealed at fog of war. 10 is just, yikes.
    The difference between See and Hear is that Distance can Hear goes around walls and doors, whereas Distance can See is stopped at walls and doors. So setting Hear up too high and creatures will attack enemies behind enemy doors, too aggressive. It can also cause Heroes to leave their post to attack player creatures nearby or imps claiming land.
    So 6 could be a good value for both "can see" and "can hear"? I'll make a try.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    What are you trying to change about imps?
    Nothing, I was just telling that I have to watch them close because they can attract enemy creatures, especially with 10-value in "can see" and "can hear". But with creatures tortured, rival Keeper attacking and so on, that becomes a bit messy, to me at least.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Did you open up a vanilla map along with a GIM map? If you did, you probably loaded up GIM's global, IE its configuration data. So if you go to the vanilla map in the editor tab and then open up configuration data, you're not looking at vanilla data but GIM data.

    Either that or you accidentally saved GIM's global data. Vanilla maps don't have global data saved, there's only 6 map files associated with them. So if you had GIM campaign maps and then wanted to get rid of them, you can't just overwrite them with the vanilla map files, you need to also delete the global data files associated with them.

    Also, in regards to having multiple maps open in the editor at once. Because the vanilla maps don't have global data, you won't get that prompt to load the map's global data when you load it, and it will instead retain any current global data opened up in the editor. So if you open up a GIM map first, even if you close it before opening up a vanilla map, it'll still have GIM's global data when you look up configuration data. Need to close / reopen the editor or have two separate editors open if you want to actively compare values.

    Honestly when I played GIM the other day to try 1.51, I disregarded the instructions (it asks you to delete your entire map folder which is just AFoanfuAOFH unnecessary). Instead, just need to put DKII.exe, DKII.icd, DKII-DX.exe, patch.dll, QMixer.dll, SFMAN32.dll files into the main directory. Then run DKII.exe for 1.51 or DKII-DX.exe for 1.7. For GOG installations anyway.
    Of course, now I might suggest deleting your map sub folder to get rid of GIM stuff and replace it with a vanilla copy instead. And, you might also want this.
    OK I suppose you are right, I made something I don't really understand. With vanilla game freshly installed, I run the DK2Editor and I get this message:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    What am I supposed to choose, actually?

    Also, when I save a modified level, it asks me if I want to include Global Data with saved level. I suppose it can affect the way the level is saved with the modifications I try to make.

    For the moment, I just try to make modifications in one level on one go. I think it's hard enough for me at the moment

  4. #24
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    But that may also come from the total health of the creature which could have been decreased in Gim?
    Oh you're right, I forgot to look at Health. Yes it seems that units had their health reduced to roughly 50% or even 25% of base, some even lower. Monk went down from 2500 to 625, jeez no wonder you were having trouble on Level 13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    So 6 could be a good value for both "can see" and "can hear"? I'll make a try.
    6 is not good for Can Hear, that will cause creatures to attack things behind enemy doors more frequently. 4 or 3 for Hear. 4 is default, but that might be too sensitive in some situations.
    Can See is unobscured distance. Can Hear is like vision through doors, or around walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    OK I suppose you are right, I made something I don't really understand. With vanilla game freshly installed, I run the DK2Editor and I get this message:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	globaldata.jpg 
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    If you got that from loading up an official map for the first time, that might mean it wasn't a proper reinstall. If you click OK to load the global data and check the Goblin's Health, if it's 753 or anything but 1500, then you have GIM data still on there.

    Saving the original maps over the GIM based maps won't delete the global data files, which are additional files. It's why I recommended deleting the entire folder.

    If you didn't get that message the first time you loaded the map, but instead after saving the map and then loading it back up again, well that probably means you attached global data to the map when you saved, and now it's prompting you about loading it back up again and that's normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    Also, when I save a modified level, it asks me if I want to include Global Data with saved level. I suppose it can affect the way the level is saved with the modifications I try to make.
    Global data contains all the configuration changes you make, so if you make changes then yes it's necessary to save the global data too. That's also what the prompt is related to when you load the map - whether or not you want to load that map's global data IE its configuration settings.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  5. #25

    Default Re: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

    Thank you for your answer!

    OK so 6 for can see and 4 for can hear.

    I guess you're right, there is something wrong with my installation, I'll make a full uninstall and then delete the whole folder to make a brand new GOG install and only then open a map with the editor to see if things are better.

    Nonetheless, I'll install Gim and set back these health, can see and can hear values since Gim offers interesting modifications, especially for enemy keepers which are far more aggressive.

    When I'll make these changes, I'll have to save the global data to get them effective ingame, if I understand correctly?

    Thank you again!

  6. #26
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to make Dungeon Keeper 2 retail version 2 CD work ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mornagest View Post
    When I'll make these changes, I'll have to save the global data to get them effective ingame, if I understand correctly?
    yes
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

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