Page 11 of 11 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11
Results 101 to 106 of 106

Thread: Training

  
  1. #101

    Default Re: Training

    Perhaps replace the old training room style with the combat pit entirely? Gold cost is now more hazard pay for your creatures, also makes training less passive and forces you to manage when you want to train and when you want your creatures to do other things. Also adds value to prisoners as training fodder, and adds risk to training, as if you train an the wrong time you could suddenly have a battle on your hands and a large portion of your population is injured from training. I know the training room is kind of iconic for DK, but I also want to check myself to see if I accidentally have my rose tinted goggles on. Coding for either shouldn't be too big of an issue, so it's more a question of style and feel.

  2. #102
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Training

    Quote Originally Posted by Galf1 View Post
    Perhaps replace the old training room style with the combat pit entirely? Gold cost is now more hazard pay for your creatures, also makes training less passive and forces you to manage when you want to train and when you want your creatures to do other things. Also adds value to prisoners as training fodder, and adds risk to training, as if you train an the wrong time you could suddenly have a battle on your hands and a large portion of your population is injured from training. I know the training room is kind of iconic for DK, but I also want to check myself to see if I accidentally have my rose tinted goggles on. Coding for either shouldn't be too big of an issue, so it's more a question of style and feel.
    One serious problem the Combat Pit has that I just realized is proper balance between the Creature and Hero side. The thing is, you can only train the Units you drop in there, which is usually a low amount. They also gain experiance as if they were in real battle. (EXP when hitting the target)

    Both these things are a problem because the Hero Side will train their Units overall much faster. Since they have fewer Units, they can spread training out to their whole army quicker than the Creature Side.

    An example is that perhaps you train 5 Units in the Combat Pit at one time. Say the differences between the Creature and Hero Side is something like 30 vs 10 Units. (Example!) The Hero Side will get the training experiance spread out to their whole army in two training sessions. The Creature Side, however, will require six. The last thing that's a problem is that the Heroes will generally train faster. Because Hero counterparts are stronger than Creature counterparts, Units recieve more experiance when hitting them. As a result, when in the Combat Pit fighting against each other, they'll Level Up faster as they're getting more EXP from hitting each other.

    If there is no Training Room and only the Combat Pit, you could give Units a Training Value so you fix the second problem I mentioned. But the first problem is more noticable and serious, which cannot be easily fixed.

    So a huge "No" to that idea and also to having the Combat Pit exist in general.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  3. #103
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Terra Australis, The Overworld
    Posts
    1,887
    Gamer IDs

    XFIRE ID: popgunpigeon

    Default Re: Training

    What if the bloodless Training Room was Hero only, and the Combat Pit being more grisly and more martial was Keeper only?

    Keeper has more creatures but they are weaker (on whole).
    They wouldn't be able to train the bulk of them, but those they do train reach higher levels faster and are thus able to provide a core of a few 'elite' levelled creatures backed up a greater amount cannon fodder which is the bulk of the force. This is in sync with Keepers massing weaker creatures, because the bulk of their force is such.

    Heroes have less creatures but they are stronger (on whole).
    With the Heroes having the training room they are more likely to be able to give their creatures an equal training across the board. The entire force, rather than a small portion, is trained - but not as highly due to its speed limitations. This focuses on maximizing the strength of ever individual together equally which is also in sync with heroes.

    I think that could work. It would balance out.

    The early game layout would be like this, as an example:

    Heroes (10)
    10x creatures between levels 4-5

    Keeper (16)
    12x creatures at level 1
    4x creatures between levels 8-9
    That could work yes? Also take into account heroes intrinsic higher power and depending how much better they are you could tweak the training speed of the training room.

    This creates an interesting dynamic, because the fodder for the Keeper is cheap as chips and easy to regain. It doesn't matter if he loses heaps. But his high-level creatures are a pain to have to replace and he can only ever have a limited number training at any given time, plus the inherent risks. He needs that fodder to shield his elite.

    With the heroes every creature lost is a set-back, an order of magnitude worse than a Keeper losing his fodder, but an order of magnitude better than a Keeper losing his elite. Plus reinforcements can level en masse.
    Last edited by MeinCookie; August 29th, 2011 at 15:03.
    {RPG} Creature Page: Here | My Maps, My Comic


    Not even Vermillion reads the OOC threads

    Current Awakening Creatures


    8 :Creatures Dispatched | Creatures Killed: 9

  4. #104
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Training

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    What if the bloodless Training Room was Hero only, and the Combat Pit being more grisly and more martial was Keeper only?
    If only it were that easy. As much as I like creating differences in gameplay between the Hero Side and Creature Side, I'm not going to touch any of the Basic 5/6 Rooms. (Treasury, Lair, Hatchery, Training Room, Library, and Workshop (Which wasn't one of the Basic Five in DK1 but may become one of the Basic Six in WftO)) Those rooms need to remain the same and equal for both sides. I will be trying out new revisons of certain other Rooms for the Hero Side, however, such as the Graveyard. I'm certain you can see why I "need" to change some of the Rooms for the Hero Side.

    I'm not sure if you realized this or not but allowing one side use the Training Room and the other use the Combat Pit effects more of the game than you think. There are huge differences between the two. The former relies on Gold to function properly and the latter relies on Mana to function more efficiently.

    The more Gold the Training Room owner has makes no difference, as long as he has enough to Train his Units. No matter how rich he is, his Units aren't going to train any faster. On the other hand, if he's broke for whatever reason or is very limited on the amount of Gold he can use, he cannot use the Training Room very often.

    The more Mana the Combat Pit owner has does allow him to train his Units much faster. With more Mana, he can easily cast Heal on his Units and they will fight even more, gaining much more experiance. If a Combat Pit owner has a good source of Mana, he will easily outdo the rich Training Room owner. If the Combat Pit owner has no Gold nor Mana, he can still use the Combat Pit as it is free.

    Making the Combat Pit cost money or not allowing a Player to cast Heal on the Units in the Pit doesn't help the situation. The Combat Pit already has enough drawbacks, and putting more limitations on it would allow the Training Room owner to outdo the Combat Pit owner. Even so, there are other problems with the Combat Pit. Some Units will simply train much faster than others. Example would be DPS Units or even tanks like the Dragon. DPS Units would get a lot of hits in and gain a lot of EXP. Dragons simply wouldn't damage each other enough to kill each other very quickly, and they can sit in the Combat Pit for a long time much like how two Warlocks could in DK2.

    Units that would have problems with the Combat Pit would be Heavy Hitters like the Ogre or Giant, since they don't attack as often and hit very hard. They'd kill their enemy before recieving much EXP as a result. It would make it very difficult to train with Ogres and Giants for that very reason. It would reduce their usefulness and raise the usefulness of Units like the Dragon, simply because of the way the Combat Pit functions.

    I find it unneccessary to try and revise the Combat Pit because then you need to balance the Combat Pit revision with the Training Room. Making the Hero/Creature Side use different types of Training Rooms isn't even needed, so it would be a lot of work for a result that probably isn't worth it, especially due to another reason I'll explain later in the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    Keeper has more creatures but they are weaker (on whole).
    They wouldn't be able to train the bulk of them, but those they do train reach higher levels faster and are thus able to provide a core of a few 'elite' levelled creatures backed up a greater amount cannon fodder which is the bulk of the force. This is in sync with Keepers massing weaker creatures, because the bulk of their force is such.

    Heroes have less creatures but they are stronger (on whole).
    With the Heroes having the training room they are more likely to be able to give their creatures an equal training across the board. The entire force, rather than a small portion, is trained - but not as highly due to its speed limitations. This focuses on maximizing the strength of ever individual together equally which is also in sync with heroes.
    The most ironic thing is that that means the Heroes should have the Combat Pit. The Heroes are the ones who focus on having a small group of Elites. But the thing is, that isn't how it is going to end up working. Heroes aren't stronger than Creatures because they have a better rounded Training level. Creatures are statistically inferior to Heroes. Heroes also specialize so they are more efficient at most tasks compared to Creatures, who usually end up with multiple functions. Not too many Creatures specialize, but an example of one would be the Witch.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    The early game layout would be like this, as an example:

    Heroes (10)
    10x creatures between levels 4-5

    Keeper (16)
    12x creatures at level 1
    4x creatures between levels 8-9
    That could work yes? Also take into account heroes intrinsic higher power and depending how much better they are you could tweak the training speed of the training room.
    No that wouldn't work. The Heroes would tear those Level 1 Units into pieces. Remember that they're only Level 1, so they have no real abilities or spells or anything. They can't pull their own weight and wouldn't last a second against a Hero Unit who is both statistically and potentially stronger than them as well as several Levels higher than them.

    There was also a mode I wanted to add to Multiplayer to expand gameplay that involved playing as the Dungeon Keeper with all the same Rooms, Spells, etc except they use Heroes instead of Creatures. It would be easy to give Heroes access to the Combat Pit then, and then we'd run into the same problem as I posted above. Removing the Combat Pit or anything else from them would kill the point of that mode, which is to allow the Player to play as the Dungeon Keeper instead of the Lord of the Land with all the Dungeon Keeper's abilities, except allowing them to use Heroes.

    For this same reason, doing tweaks to the Combat Pit to fit the Creature Side wouldn't work out very well at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    This creates an interesting dynamic, because the fodder for the Keeper is cheap as chips and easy to regain. It doesn't matter if he loses heaps. But his high-level creatures are a pain to have to replace and he can only ever have a limited number training at any given time, plus the inherent risks. He needs that fodder to shield his elite.

    With the heroes every creature lost is a set-back, an order of magnitude worse than a Keeper losing his fodder, but an order of magnitude better than a Keeper losing his elite. Plus reinforcements can level en masse.
    That's the basic idea of how the Creature VS Hero Sides will play out when it comes to differences of Units. Though as I stated before, this will be done through differences in the Units statistically, not differences in the types of Training Rooms that both sides use as they're both going to use the same type of Training Room.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

  5. #105
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Terra Australis, The Overworld
    Posts
    1,887
    Gamer IDs

    XFIRE ID: popgunpigeon

    Default Re: Training

    Yes... mana and gold are not much alike which is the flaw with that, I must agree, and are not easily balanced without altering the very nature of the rooms . The only way I could see of doing that would be ongoing gold maintenance costs for the CP and mana maintenance costs for TR. Nonetheless, with different types of units coming into play (glass cannons and such) and also the late game to consider it probably wouldn't be ideal. Some hero units would be overlooked and left among the rabble, and even if they had extremely powerful latter abilities, wouldn't be trained for the hassle.

    Thanks for answering so comprehensively.
    {RPG} Creature Page: Here | My Maps, My Comic


    Not even Vermillion reads the OOC threads

    Current Awakening Creatures


    8 :Creatures Dispatched | Creatures Killed: 9

  6. #106
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,689

    Default Re: Training

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    Yes... mana and gold are not much alike which is the flaw with that, I must agree, and are not easily balanced without altering the very nature of the rooms . The only way I could see of doing that would be ongoing gold maintenance costs for the CP and mana maintenance costs for TR. Nonetheless, with different types of units coming into play (glass cannons and such) and also the late game to consider it probably wouldn't be ideal. Some hero units would be overlooked and left among the rabble, and even if they had extremely powerful latter abilities, wouldn't be trained for the hassle.

    Thanks for answering so comprehensively.
    No problem.
    Dungeon Keeper 2 Patch: With More Balance and Pie [Hiatus]
    Forever Hiatus. Probably. Latest Version: 3.5 w/Levels 1-11 Revised.

    The Awakening: GM Powers Activate!
    Tesonu is napping!

Similar Threads

  1. Red Crystal Islands
    By Dark_Omega MK2 in forum Heavenarius
    Replies: 474
    Last Post: August 28th, 2014, 10:01
  2. Frozengard Wastelands
    By Duke Ragereaver in forum Heavenarius
    Replies: 404
    Last Post: May 13th, 2013, 05:53
  3. Crystalbarrow Catacombs
    By Duke Ragereaver in forum Heavenarius
    Replies: 535
    Last Post: April 5th, 2012, 22:14
  4. Skeleton Invasion (New Map)
    By Metal Gear Rex in forum DK1 Maps
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: September 12th, 2010, 11:26
  5. Dungeon Keeper Democracy
    By Duke Ragereaver in forum Silly
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: February 7th, 2010, 11:10

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •