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  1. #21

    Default Re: Roc

    I think we've learned that when there is many of one thing, not many creatures stand a chance against its primary attack if its lightening, so it'd be wise to make it more vulnerable to ranged attacks when using flight.

    Consider this, a dragon has meteor and a Roc goes into flight, both are level 10,
    the Roc loses half of its health if the meteor hits, if the Roc isn't using flight, thus on the ground, it'll only lose one petal of its health.
    The Meteor spell seems like one of the strongest ranged attacks, hence why it takes so much.

    This creature seems to be a very dungeon keeper styled creature in my opinion though, it'd be easy to imagine having one in a dungeon keeper game.

  2. #22
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Ragereaver View Post
    You've proven your point, thanks. Now, as I asked before, any solutions?
    Read the top sentence.

    The only way to make sure it's not going to go underground ever would be to disable the ability to obtain it in any way.

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  3. #23
    Warlock Monsterbaby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    About the remake.

    First of all I think we need something more organic and natural for the neutral creatures. Adding markings is a good idea, however making the wings and everything into skin, seems a bit off. Then it becomes more of a dragon.. And then why WOULD it be called a Roc? If we go for that name. If it was made by skin. Afterall this is a NEUTRAL creature, not an evil creature. This creature could much likely be helping out the allies, be a unit for itself, or be an evil creature. So it has to fit the factions in between. If everything will look demon like, the entire "overworld" concept falls to the ground if you ask me. In my oppionion there should really be a big difference in the looks between Evil, Neutral and Good creatures.

    So if you guys change the suggestion into "giant bat" or something, sure I can remake the design to such, but for now I am sticking with the Roc / Griffin.

  4. #24
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Ragereaver View Post
    You've proven your point, thanks. Now, as I asked before, any solutions?
    Read the top sentence.

    The only way to make sure it's not going to go underground ever would be to disable the ability to obtain it in any way.
    Any solutions that aren't so limiting?

    Having an above world only creature is kinda lame if you ask me. For every overworld only creature/hero we have, we have to make an undrground only creature/hero to match if we want that balance. And we should make them good ones, not fillers like the Dark Elf or Black Knight.

    It is very limiting to the future map makers of WftO.

    Why not make it walk on its feet with its wings curled up in narrow passages? There's no graphical problem there. Gonnna be weird in possession though.

    The Flight spell could allow flying in narrow passages as well.

    This AI could be used for all flying creatures in houses and stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke Ragereaver
    Flight ability is only an average ability in my opinion. It's at first questionable if the Roc will do more damage when not using this ability, he certainly is more durable at this state but being able to cast only one offensive ability is kinda meager, even an ability as lightning. When do you think the Roc will do more damage, when he's in the ground being a ordinary creature, or in the air? Quite frankly, only the weaker creatures are really vulnerable to this ability. And from a sidenote, it encourages the player to be more diverse with it's army.

    Protect monster is only useful in melee battles, abilities and spells do full damage in DK1, and I put the ability to function that way. So it doesn't really matter. I stand with the Flight ability as it is now.
    Sorry to disapoint you but Protect effects spells as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Madkill View Post
    I think we've learned that when there is many of one thing, not many creatures stand a chance against its primary attack if its lightening, so it'd be wise to make it more vulnerable to ranged attacks when using flight.

    Consider this, a dragon has meteor and a Roc goes into flight, both are level 10,
    the Roc loses half of its health if the meteor hits, if the Roc isn't using flight, thus on the ground, it'll only lose one petal of its health.
    The Meteor spell seems like one of the strongest ranged attacks, hence why it takes so much.

    This creature seems to be a very dungeon keeper styled creature in my opinion though, it'd be easy to imagine having one in a dungeon keeper game.
    The four most powerful spells I can think of are Lightning, Meteor, Hailstorm, and Word of Power.

    Word of Power's strength comes from the army against the user

    Meteor is single target full power

    Hailstorm is better for melee, because its multi strikes miss the farther it goes. But at melee it goes full blast, all hail the Monk.

    Lightning, however, possibly surpasses them all. I'm not sure, I need to test it as it is multi hits. Those hits count on the target's movements. If the only one to hit is ranged, they will stand still. That means the lightning will do full damage. Not to mention there's no protection against it as it goes through Rebound.

    The Dark Mistress is pure proof we don't want this thing in its current state.

    She has a high health, making her stand longer. And she's so fast that she outmoves most melee units. The Fairy can't outrun, she has too many spells to cast. The Roc's ability to avoid melee is even better than the Dark Mistress' speed to out run melee fighters.

    And also, the weakness of a flying creature should only be with this ability. It limits too many other creatures/heroes if it is for all flying things. Its not like they have an advantage like this.

    Even not as a flying creature, this unit seems way to powerful as a melee. He has high health and is pretty quick on his strikes. He has an average defense, not a poor one. His armor may be low, but protect will do more than take care of that. And a medium-high attack? Yikes. I think you just put the Horned Reaper out of buisness.
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  5. #25
    Dungeon Keeper Duke Ragereaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    Any solutions that aren't so limiting?

    Having an above world only creature is kinda lame if you ask me. For every overworld only creature/hero we have, we have to make an undrground only creature/hero to match if we want that balance. And we should make them good ones, not fillers like the Dark Elf or Black Knight.

    It is very limiting to the future map makers of WftO.

    Why not make it walk on its feet with its wings curled up in narrow passages? There's no graphical problem there. Gonnna be weird in possession though.

    The Flight spell could allow flying in narrow passages as well.

    This AI could be used for all flying creatures in houses and stuff.
    Pretty much sums up on what I think on it, thanks.

    I think we've learned that when there is many of one thing, not many creatures stand a chance against its primary attack if its lightening, so it'd be wise to make it more vulnerable to ranged attacks when using flight.
    The four most powerful spells I can think of are Lightning, Meteor, Hailstorm, and Word of Power.

    Word of Power's strength comes from the army against the user

    Meteor is single target full power

    Hailstorm is better for melee, because its multi strikes miss the farther it goes. But at melee it goes full blast, all hail the Monk.

    Lightning, however, possibly surpasses them all. I'm not sure, I need to test it as it is multi hits. Those hits count on the target's movements. If the only one to hit is ranged, they will stand still. That means the lightning will do full damage. Not to mention there's no protection against it as it goes through Rebound.

    The Dark Mistress is pure proof we don't want this thing in its current state.

    She has a high health, making her stand longer. And she's so fast that she outmoves most melee units. The Fairy can't outrun, she has too many spells to cast. The Roc's ability to avoid melee is even better than the Dark Mistress' speed to out run melee fighters.

    And also, the weakness of a flying creature should only be with this ability. It limits too many other creatures/heroes if it is for all flying things. Its not like they have an advantage like this.

    Even not as a flying creature, this unit seems way to powerful as a melee. He has high health and is pretty quick on his strikes. He has an average defense, not a poor one. His armor may be low, but protect will do more than take care of that. And a medium-high attack? Yikes. I think you just put the Horned Reaper out of buisness.
    I'l make a stats list with values in a few moments and add it to the first page. Also, I'l modify some stats.


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  6. #26
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Why not make it walk on its feet with its wings curled up in narrow passages? There's no graphical problem there. Gonnna be weird in possession though.
    Fair enough, it can stand and walk. There's still the problem that these are supposed to be huge: "Giant sized birds, the Roc is a legendary Overworld bird that are reputated to carry off and eat Bile Demons.".

    So these probably take up 70 to 90% of the corridor. Would that look nice? I don't think so.

    Consider also that it'd need to stay in such a cramped position for other animations, e.g. attacking, manufacturing, etc. to prevent graphical issues, like the wings going through walls et cetera.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The Flight spell could allow flying in narrow passages as well.

    This AI could be used for all flying creatures in houses and stuff.
    Birds can't fly without their wings spread. Basically what you'll see is a giant bird in a small corridor that's flying mostly inside the ceiling while its wings stick out through the ceiling into the walls.

    'looks bad through possession' is an understatement.

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  7. #27
    Your Majesty Hapuga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    I really cannot understand why you are trying to pull the bird in the dungeon.
    It is so damn stupid, excuse me. The whole discussion is so damn crazy. Monsterbaby made a great griffin. This bird lives on the surface ONLY. Get it? Only.

    Duh, some creatures live on the outside and some on the inside. Duh, once again. So funny to see how you are trying to pull everything in the dungeon.

    I have a suggestion for you. Create a war mastodon and pull it in the dungeon too. No, seriously guys, stop being ridiculous.
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  8. #28
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Fair enough, it can stand and walk. There's still the problem that these are supposed to be huge: "Giant sized birds, the Roc is a legendary Overworld bird that are reputated to carry off and eat Bile Demons.".

    So these probably take up 70 to 90% of the corridor. Would that look nice? I don't think so.

    Consider also that it'd need to stay in such a cramped position for other animations, e.g. attacking, manufacturing, etc. to prevent graphical issues, like the wings going through walls et cetera.


    Birds can't fly without their wings spread. Basically what you'll see is a giant bird in a small corridor that's flying mostly inside the ceiling while its wings stick out through the ceiling into the walls.

    'looks bad through possession' is an understatement.
    Even after the creator of the idea acknowledges my own arguements you continue at it? Show's how desprite you are to start something as always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    I really cannot understand why you are trying to pull the bird in the dungeon.
    It is so damn stupid, excuse me. The whole discussion is so damn crazy. Monsterbaby made a great griffin. This bird lives on the surface ONLY. Get it? Only.

    Duh, some creatures live on the outside and some on the inside. Duh, once again. So funny to see how you are trying to pull everything in the dungeon.

    I have a suggestion for you. Create a war mastodon and pull it in the dungeon too. No, seriously guys, stop being ridiculous.
    You're missing the point entirely, not so surprised.

    The point is for in the future for those who choose to make them appear underground it will just be bugged and make the game feel more incomplete. It may appear weird, but the purpose is not to make the Roc available underground under normal circumstances but to make it possible at all to get the Roc underground under abnormal circumstances.

    Hapuga, I'm sure you're frustrated by many of the incomplete/limited elements in the DK2 Editor, it is much like that. We don't want to leave it unfinished. At least make it work somehow so if it doesn't become buggy and limited.
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  9. #29
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Roc

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Even after the creator of the idea acknowledges my own arguements you continue at it? Show's how desprite you are to start something as always.
    Since when does the creator acknowledging your arguments mean anything?

    "hey, that dungeon xxx sounds like a good idea."
    "lol no"
    "but the creator agrees with me so obviously i am right"

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  10. #30

    Default Re: Roc

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapuga View Post
    I really cannot understand why you are trying to pull the bird in the dungeon.
    It is so damn stupid, excuse me. The whole discussion is so damn crazy. Monsterbaby made a great griffin. This bird lives on the surface ONLY. Get it? Only.
    All we need to do now is have it very weak when in 'flight' and all shall be good.


    Also, if it can only live on the surface then it should either A) lose its wings when converted and become a bile demon except it has no arms instead of no legs or...
    B) Not be a creature you can attain and will convert to a ghost after you gather information of the territory (since it flies everywhere that should be a lot of territory) ;would make capturing this being very useful too.

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