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Thread: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

  
  1. #21
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    But that was the allure of dwarves in my opinion... they are more effective, can actually fight, mine better and possibly even manufacture if you combine them. At the same time they are creatures and thus rarer and actually a drain on you treasuries which discourages large amounts. You guys are the ones who say that teams shouldn't be carbon-copies of each other.
    We may run into a problem. Miners are different from normal creatures, he probably can't manufacture if he's a worker, there are too many problems involved in that with the AI or whatever. Look at DK1 >.>
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  2. #22
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    If you are going to do it than do it properly... it saves two creatures and two creature models, rigging and whatever else goes on top. It also opens up room for other more unique heroes who have a question mark hanging over their head.
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  3. #23
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    If you are going to do it than do it properly... it saves two creatures and two creature models, rigging and whatever else goes on top. It also opens up room for other more unique heroes who have a question mark hanging over their head.
    Well you obviously don't know it won't be as easy, but what do you mean it takes up another creature slot? The Mountain Dwarf is both a basic blocker and the manufacturer. If you make him into a miner, and keep those classes as well, there's no reason to add anyone else in there and thus it wouldn't matter if he was a miner or not because those slots would be taken up anyways. In fact, he probably should have a simplier usage, a miner and standard creature isn't something that should be mixed.

    -----

    Here are a few problems-
    Gold Held
    There's a problem with him collecting pay and mining gold. The two collide. If he is made not to collect pay, then he becomes TOO useful, as he already is a pretty decent blocker AND manufacturer. You would have to nerf him to balance this, which would make him no longer as good a manufacturer or blocker. Those uses would be tossed aside, and then you'd have a reason to add a replacement creature. In the end, it would be something like DK1 but 2 different types of creatures.

    Battle
    If your Dwarves are busy in battle, how are they going to be mining that gold that you desperately need? What about if they are mining it, but then, where are the blockers at the frontlines of the battlefield? Your army will suffer sufficiantly. You won't have any other creatures to help with battle due to the fact that the Dwarves will have to take up creature slots in the creature pool, thus cutting you off of other creatures.

    Dungeon Activity
    you should know very well that your Imps work while your creatures do. That is a huge work load for the Dwarf, having to keep up with mining and the Workshop too. Where's the priority going to go? Not to mention, if he's mining, again, it takes out your effectiveness as he'll take up creature slots which could be given to say Wizards to help you research. (Or Trolls if you just converted Dwarves)

    -----

    These are 3 big things that really are a problem with making him a standard creature and a miner. Not to mention, just the things off the top of my head. I'm sure that once this idea goes into progress and is being coded, many more smaller problems (Yet larger in overall amount) would arise.

    I agree with Bluto's idea, 2 designs that look far enough apart so they don't look too unoriginal yet still being related is a good idea, considering their already existing stance in the original Dungeon Keeper.
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  4. #24
    Stick User A New Room's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Here are a few problems-
    Gold Held
    There's a problem with him collecting pay and mining gold. The two collide. If he is made not to collect pay, then he becomes TOO useful, as he already is a pretty decent blocker AND manufacturer. You would have to nerf him to balance this, which would make him no longer as good a manufacturer or blocker. Those uses would be tossed aside, and then you'd have a reason to add a replacement creature. In the end, it would be something like DK1 but 2 different types of creatures.

    Battle
    If your Dwarves are busy in battle, how are they going to be mining that gold that you desperately need? What about if they are mining it, but then, where are the blockers at the frontlines of the battlefield? Your army will suffer sufficiantly. You won't have any other creatures to help with battle due to the fact that the Dwarves will have to take up creature slots in the creature pool, thus cutting you off of other creatures.

    Dungeon Activity
    you should know very well that your Imps work while your creatures do. That is a huge work load for the Dwarf, having to keep up with mining and the Workshop too. Where's the priority going to go? Not to mention, if he's mining, again, it takes out your effectiveness as he'll take up creature slots which could be given to say Wizards to help you research. (Or Trolls if you just converted Dwarves)

    -----

    These are 3 big things that really are a problem with making him a standard creature and a miner. Not to mention, just the things off the top of my head. I'm sure that once this idea goes into progress and is being coded, many more smaller problems (Yet larger in overall amount) would arise.
    Why not just lose the dwarf and keep the tunneller as is then?
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  5. #25
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Here are a few problems-
    Gold Held
    There's a problem with him collecting pay and mining gold. The two collide. If he is made not to collect pay, then he becomes TOO useful, as he already is a pretty decent blocker AND manufacturer. You would have to nerf him to balance this, which would make him no longer as good a manufacturer or blocker. Those uses would be tossed aside, and then you'd have a reason to add a replacement creature. In the end, it would be something like DK1 but 2 different types of creatures.
    How do they collide exactly? The Dwarf could just dump any money he mines in the treasury while keeping his payday reserves.

    Even then, having no pay wouldn't be that game-breaking either. It just makes it cheap to maintain and be able to do a multitude of tasks. Keep in mind it's still a pretty low-class unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Battle
    If your Dwarves are busy in battle, how are they going to be mining that gold that you desperately need? What about if they are mining it, but then, where are the blockers at the frontlines of the battlefield? Your army will suffer sufficiantly. You won't have any other creatures to help with battle due to the fact that the Dwarves will have to take up creature slots in the creature pool, thus cutting you off of other creatures.
    Well, Imps can't dig out gold when there's being fought near them either, right? (At least in DK1 that is) This would be pretty much the same, except the Dwarf would actually fight rather than flee.

    If you can't work out the dilemma of having them fight on the frontlines or mining gold far away from combat, that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Dungeon Activity
    you should know very well that your Imps work while your creatures do. That is a huge work load for the Dwarf, having to keep up with mining and the Workshop too. Where's the priority going to go? Not to mention, if he's mining, again, it takes out your effectiveness as he'll take up creature slots which could be given to say Wizards to help you research. (Or Trolls if you just converted Dwarves)
    Can't it just have priorities like creatures in DK1? Primary task, dig out gold, secondary task, manufacture. Or the other way around.

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  6. #26
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Simply I shall answer all questions... they require a little bit more micro-managing perhaps, but once you have better creatures you won't need dwarves to fight.

    I suggest that if you drop a dwarf in workshop he will continually manufacture and keep coming back to that task after paydays and stuff. Treasury for mining/wall reinforcement/claiming and Guard Room for fighting. Easy.
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  7. #27
    Awakening Game Master Metal Gear Rex's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by A New Room View Post
    Why not just lose the dwarf and keep the tunneller as is then?
    That would be throwing away a perfectly good creature that is well-balanced for a miner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    How do they collide exactly? The Dwarf could just dump any money he mines in the treasury while keeping his payday reserves.

    Even then, having no pay wouldn't be that game-breaking either. It just makes it cheap to maintain and be able to do a multitude of tasks. Keep in mind it's still a pretty low-class unit.
    True, most definately not the biggest problem I mentioned. As I previously stated, these are just off the top of my head. However, the solution would require a break-away from how both DKI and DKII handled Gold Held with miners and creatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Well, Imps can't dig out gold when there's being fought near them either, right? (At least in DK1 that is) This would be pretty much the same, except the Dwarf would actually fight rather than flee.

    If you can't work out the dilemma of having them fight on the frontlines or mining gold far away from combat, that's your problem.
    The former wasn't a problem, that's a Tunneller's reaction as it was. The latter is the problem. You won't be thinking that when you're lacking defenses in battle or gold, it's annoying. Multi-tasking already can be more difficult on some of the harder (yet better (DD Maps)) maps, being forced to split your Dwarves into two areas will really be a pain in the ass, thus encouraging cheaper and more exploit-filled strategies in order to substitute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mothrayas View Post
    Can't it just have priorities like creatures in DK1? Primary task, dig out gold, secondary task, manufacture. Or the other way around.
    The problem with the priorities is which takes priority in general? Should its primary task be to mine or manufacture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    Simply I shall answer all questions... they require a little bit more micro-managing perhaps, but once you have better creatures you won't need dwarves to fight.
    Dwarves are earlier units, which shouldn't require micro-managing. It is a bad move, only should a more powerful creature require that as a balance to its power. It basically makes Dwarves more and more useless and annoying to use.

    Also, this is an imbalance between Hero and Evil side, since the Evil side will have it the easy way and have miners and blocker manufacturers, so it doesn't need to micro-manage and make things more difficult for themselves. Heroes on the other side... they're getting the bad end of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeinCookie View Post
    I suggest that if you drop a dwarf in workshop he will continually manufacture and keep coming back to that task after paydays and stuff. Treasury for mining/wall reinforcement/claiming and Guard Room for fighting. Easy.
    Gotta expand my Workshop...
    *Checks reinforced walls of Workshop*
    *Drops Dwarf in Workshop (As there's no other spot to drop him in order to get him to mine)*
    *Dwarf begins manufacturing*
    ...
    *Drops Dwarf in Workshop again*
    *Dwarf begins manufacturing*

    Easy, you say?

    There are problems with the AI in which thing it needs to do. Remember that Miners respond very differently to commands compared to Creatures. The AI is probably the biggest problem. It is easier to go with the different model suggestion compared to having to work out AI issues and fix bugs. That is the problem here.
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  8. #28
    Vampire MeinCookie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Think on it then, rather than obstructing it for the sake of doing so... i can think of ten ways to counter that in-game. it isn't a problem that can't be fix by two minutes applied thought.
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  9. #29
    Elite Dragon Mothrayas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    True, most definately not the biggest problem I mentioned. As I previously stated, these are just off the top of my head. However, the solution would require a break-away from how both DKI and DKII handled Gold Held with miners and creatures.
    Last I checked, minor deviations to make WftO different from DK1 and DK2 was a good thing. You know, what the suggestions subforum is for.



    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The former wasn't a problem, that's a Tunneller's reaction as it was. The latter is the problem. You won't be thinking that when you're lacking defenses in battle or gold, it's annoying. Multi-tasking already can be more difficult on some of the harder (yet better (DD Maps)) maps, being forced to split your Dwarves into two areas will really be a pain in the ass, thus encouraging cheaper and more exploit-filled strategies in order to substitute.
    I don't get what you're saying, it's a pain in the ass to divide dwarfs between fighting and mining? And this somehow encourages exploit-filled strategies more?

    If units are too complex for one to use, then don't use them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    The problem with the priorities is which takes priority in general? Should its primary task be to mine or manufacture?
    I don't know, but this is a minor issue at best and it'll be easy enough to forge a decision on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Dwarves are earlier units, which shouldn't require micro-managing. It is a bad move, only should a more powerful creature require that as a balance to its power. It basically makes Dwarves more and more useless and annoying to use.

    Also, this is an imbalance between Hero and Evil side, since the Evil side will have it the easy way and have miners and blocker manufacturers, so it doesn't need to micro-manage and make things more difficult for themselves. Heroes on the other side... they're getting the bad end of it.
    Yup, because 1) Dwarves are somehow impossibly hard to use, and 2) The Heroes don't have any other manufacturers (*cough* Archer *cough* Giant *cough*).
    [/heavy sarcasm]




    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    Gotta expand my Workshop...
    *Checks reinforced walls of Workshop*
    *Drops Dwarf in Workshop (As there's no other spot to drop him in order to get him to mine)*
    *Dwarf begins manufacturing*
    ...
    *Drops Dwarf in Workshop again*
    *Dwarf begins manufacturing*

    Easy, you say?
    Exactly as easy as expanding Training Rooms using Imps in DK1. And that is, you know, easy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Gear Rex View Post
    There are problems with the AI in which thing it needs to do. Remember that Miners respond very differently to commands compared to Creatures. The AI is probably the biggest problem. It is easier to go with the different model suggestion compared to having to work out AI issues and fix bugs. That is the problem here.
    How exactly do they respond "very differently"?

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  10. #30
    Stick User A New Room's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tunneller "Growing Up" to Dwarf

    Hmm... Me thinks this to be a debate fast approaching pointless and repetitive.

    On topic: Look the idea of Tunnellers (Diggers) growing up into Dwarfs (Manufactures) is an interesting one, though in many ways would be pointless, and in most cases would just plain annoying, since the it would result in pretty much the entire digging force just randomly flocking to the Workshop.

    I think gameplay wise the Tunneller is about the most unique Hero to be found in the DK games and in most RPG's, simply because he digs. In no other games do you have a party of pretty much stereotypical heroes dig through and towards a dungeon.
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